Unspoken

The Belmont Club ^ | January 29, 2008 | Richard Fernandez

[Cannoneer No. 4]

-snip-

By implication the struggle between Hesher Islam and Coughlin is symptomatic of a far larger and unresolved debate, which might be summarized as being over whether or not "Islam is a religion of peace", an assumption which has undergirded the War On Terror From September 11 onwards.

-snip-

One of the implicit strategies of the War on Terror has been to fight Islamic terrorism in conjunction with the populations of Muslim countries. In Iraq, for example, the alliances between Coalition Forces and local groups have formed the basis for attacking and eventually destroying al-Qaeda.

-snip-

This strategy has many benefits, not in the least because it allows the West to form alliances with groups and populations who might otherwise set their faces against America if it openly declared itself against Islam. It would be hard to imagine how to proceed in either Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan if America were to openly declare that Islam was in fact an ideology as noxious as Nazism. But citing the advantages of a policy assumption doesn't answer the question of whether the assumption is true; it doesn't settle the question of whether Wilders -- or Coughlin -- are correct. I am agnostic on the point. Nor do I expect any answers soon.

There seems to be a bipartisan political consensus not to examine the subject of political Islam publicly. It is the most verboten of foreign policy subjects. But like other "open secrets", its exclusion from formal discussion doesn't banish it from public consciousness. It merely pushes it underground, like Barack Obama's middle name.

The key problem with subjecting the question of political Islam to debate is that every other conclusion except that of regarding it as a "religion of peace" implies consequences no one dares face. Concluding that Islam is a 'religion of war' would precipitate a revolution in diplomacy, energy policy and military strategy. It's a bottle of nitro nobody wants to shake; it's a can of worms nobody wants to open: not a Republican administration and most especially not a Democratic one.

Explosive questions such as this are as likely to be resolved by events as by debate. To a very great extent the West is genuinely hoping that Islam is a "religion of peace"; and I suspect many Muslims are too. Unfolding events will resolve the issue -- and perceptions -- one way or the other. Ten years from today we'll have a better understanding of the truth.

[Yosemitest]

Thank you.

[StarCMC]

The one question I have for you though - it seems that if your model is to hold completely, you would be equating US with “God’s chosen people.” The way I understand scripture, God’s chosen people is, was, and ever shall be the nation of Israel.

[Yosemitest]

"you would be equating US with “God’s chosen people.”"

Absolutely.

Reference: "Israel stretched out his right hand,
and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger,
and his left hand upon Manasseh's head ...
... let my name be named on them"

It's a long process and requires a lot of reading, but it's well worth your time.

I recommend the following:

"THE UNITED STATES AND BRITIAN IN PROPHECY"

"EUROPE and AMERICA in Prophecy"

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Why is persuasion for forums other than this one?

[Lurker]

Why is persuasion for forums other than this one?

Because this place has ceased to be about persuasion. It's now about supporting the War as it's currently being run. No deviation from that line seems to be permitted any longer.

Criticism of the Administration in other areas is alright, but anything smacking of criticism of the way this war is being fought is met with bannings and suspensions.

Besides, the poster I was speaking to isn't going to be convinced of anything. He obviously believes that islam is 'peaceful' in spite of the mountains of evidence to the contrary.

He's parroting the lines of Condi Rice and her boss, nothing more. Trying to convince him of anything would be like trying to 'convince' a ventriloquists dummy.

L

[PGalt]

Thanks for the link. Thanks for posting The Belmont Club, C #4. Interesting comments.

We are witnessing the greatest anti-truth, anti-freedom, anti-individual, anti-life collective in the history of civilization.

Possible solutions here...

http://www.islam-watch.org/NoSharia/PreventEuropeIslamization6.htm

Many thanks to NoSharia.

Many thanks to Maj. Steve Coughlin

[PGalt]

OOPS! Thanks very, very much for the ping Chgogal.

[Ramius]

Lurker, you’re right about the greater general threat of islam writ large. There is a necessary confrontation coming between islam and the west.

But you’re wrong about a supposed strategy to openly throw down the gauntlet to ~all~ of them, right now. There’s a ~billion~ of them. You’re talking suicide.

We may need to fight them all, but we don’t have to do it all at once.

[Chgogal]

The painful truth is that neither the Ummah nor a significant segment of the population of America is worth the life of a single Mississippi paratrooper.

It is a painful truth.

I think it is important for the West, in particular academia, the Media and Governments to challenge Islam on all fronts, political, social and religious. In particular I would like to see Western governments demand that for every Saudi Mosque that pops up in the West, a church be built in Saudi Arabia. If Muslims demand foot baths here we demand prayer rooms in Saudi Arabia. Every time the Arabian Media prints/shows “hate” verbiage/cartoons/films, Western Media calls them on it. Every time a Muslim government demands that non-Muslim women wear the hijab in a Muslim country, the West forbids the wearing of the hijab in the West.
That is why I think what Wilders is doing with his 10 minute film is important. And yes, I do understand why our Military is upset with him for upsetting the apple cart. But we have to demand our right to exist in this world as Western citizens. We cannot submit.

Unfortunately, our leaders in academia, the Media and most Western Governments fear Islam and will not stand up for Western Civilization. And we the Citizens do not demand it. Shame on us!

[Cvengr]

On the other hand, it provides proof positive to the angelic domain that no authority or power which acts, wills, or thinks independently of faith through Him, actually succeeds in providing righteous and just results in their governance. He controls all history and He is faithful.

[StarCMC]

Ok - I spent some time looking through the links you referenced. I have a problem with your source, H. Armstrong. Under his guidance, according to my research, The WWCOG was a cult, for reasons such as (but not limited to) this:

Armstrong had taught that the WCG was God's government on earth and the only place of salvation (Dear Brethren, 2 May 1974). The ministers proclaimed that they were God's representatives and were to be obeyed without question (R. C. Meredith, Good News [GN], September 1955, p. 2). To do this could result in the offender being disfellowshipped and marked by the minister. In the mind of the member this meant spiritual death.

And

Armstrong had taught that the Christian is only a spiritual fetus subject to abortion if he did not follow all that Armstrong interpreted as God's Law. Eternal life (being born again) was secured at the resurrection.

Under the guidance of Joseph Tkach, the WWCOG has revised its doctrines, has now come into the fellowship of evangelicals, and is no longer viewed as a cult, although some of their errant teachings are still somewhat in evidence. The incorrect (and I believe unbiblical) teachings of H. Armstrong lead me to be unable to accept him as a good interpreter of scripture and prophecy in other areas. I'm not trying to offend, I am really looking to find the Truth! :-)

My references:

http://www.watchman.org/cults/wcgart.htm

http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm

Armstrongism: The doctrines and religious movement originating with Herbert W. Armstrong (1892-1986), who founded the Worldwide Church of God (WCG). Armstrong rejected such essential doctrines of evangelical Christianity as the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the personality of the Holy Spirit. Armstrong taught British Israelism and believed that worthy humans could eventually “become God as God is God.” Teaches salvation by works predicated on Sabbatarianism, tithing (20-30%), and keeping the Old Testament feast days and dietary laws. Under the leadership of Armstrong’s successors, Joseph W. Tkach and his son Joe Tkach, the WCG has undergone a radical doctrinal transformation. Scores of splinter groups, such as the Global Church of God and the United Church of God, continue to teach various forms of Armstrongism.

http://www.watchman.org/profile/pcgpro.htm

And this one explains what has changed about their doctrines:

http://www.watchman.org/cults/wcgexpo.htm

[Yosemitest]

Don't get caught in the trap of ignoring the sources Armstrong uses. He quotes chapter and verse on all his sources. Look at those, and see if they don't say what he says they say.

You can't find a source in the Bible that will go against this, and it becomes as clear and as straight as laser light.

[Yosemitest]

To say that Armstrong was more that a man, is silly. Man makes mistakes but, you won’t find any in those two booklets.

[StarCMC]

Can you tell me how he can prove that the Brits are the descendants of Ephraim and Manasseh? That is the leap I just cannot make. All records of Jewish genealogy were destroyed in the temple fire of 70 AD from what I understand.

[StarCMC]

You know -- it's got a lot to do with context, and given time, I am fairly certain that I could pick it apart. You can make the Bible tell you to commit suicide simply by picking and choosing verses. Look up Matthew 27:5 and then Luke 37:10b. Further...

With the trinity out of the way, Armstrong could teach what Steven Flurry called "one of the very foundational doctrines of the WCG,0 that is, God is a family. The trinity limited God to only three, and undermines God's purposes. God desires to reproduce Himself with his creation. Jesus was the first to enter the God Family. Subsequently, every person has the ability to become part of the Godhead. "There may become billions of God persons." This is not to say that we will be equal with God the Father. Gerald Flurry states, "the kingdom of God is the family of God. And who is the head of the family? Christ? Of course not! The Father is the head of the family. God the Father is the central figure of the gospel!"

The denial of the Trinity is apostasy, as is the belief that we can become part of the Godhead. If someone has these beliefs at the heart of their theology, I cannot see how reading any more from them would be beneficial to me or any other practicing evangelical Christian.

[StarCMC]

Sorry to be wordy, but this is where I am getting my info, and it boldly disavows the idea that the Brits are in any way to be substituted for Israel as God's chosen ones.

British-Israelism: Old Theories Never Die - Or Do They?

Phillip Arnn

The articles on our site concerning the Worldwide Church of God are to inform readers about the history of that organization and the doctrines taught by its founder. Numerous splinter groups still practice Armstrongism. The Worldwide Church of God is a Christian denomination and a member of the National Association of Evangelicals and Evangelical Ministries to New Religions (EMNR).

Herbert W. Armstrong, founder of the Worldwide Church of God, had a fascination with Bible prophecy. That served his needs for a hook to engross the masses for forty years.

One of his many writings was entitled, The United States and Britain in Prophecy.

Armstrong pronounced the leaders of the world "ignorant" of developing world events. Why? Because they did not possess the "key" to understanding the future. Armstrong declared in this work: "But the all-important master key has been found" (p. 3).

He states, "The great world powers of our time have been, and are, the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, Germany, France and other Western European nations. The messing vital KEY is simply the identity of these great world powers in biblical prophecy" (pp. 2-3).

In Mystery of the Ages Armstrong boasted that the Bible was a coded book and that God had revealed to him the secret of the code (p. 12).

The identity of these great nations according to Armstrong is that they are the descendants of the lost ten tribes of Israel.

The teaching of what has been called British-Israelism has been in existence for over two centuries. Armstrong merely revived an old discredited belief rather than discover a new Bible secret.

He and his forerunners taught that Assyria invaded the northern kingdom of Israel in B.C. 721 and carried off all of its inhabitants to the last man, woman and child. As the Assyrians moved north and west into Europe, the captives were carried along with them. Eventually, all trace of their identity disappeared.

The blessing of Jacob upon the sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh, bestowed upon them and their descendants the blessing of Abraham and the promise of God. Great Britain and the United States are these descendants according to the British-Israelism theory.

One problem with this scenario is found in II Chronicles 30:1 which reads: "And Hezekiah wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh that they should come to the house of the Lord at Jerusalem, to keep the Passover unto the Lord God of Israel."

Further, II Chron. 30:18 states that "many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebu¬lum came to Jerusalem."

This event occurred sometime after the Assyrian invasion and the carrying away of Israel.

In the year B.C. 628, Josiah called Israel and Judah to observe the Passover. In II Chronicles 34:9 it is recorded that Ephraim and Manasseh contributed to the rebuilding of the Temple by Josiah.

If the Northern Tribes were swept away and especially the bearers of the birthright, Ephraim and Manasseh, how could they be present years later at these feasts?

In Luke 2:36 it is recorded that Jesus was found at the Temple by a prophetess named Anna, of the tribe of Asher. If Asher had disappeared into Assyrian captivity, who had kept the lineage of Anna's family?

British-Israelism has always been a theory without credible proof. It is presently under review by the Worldwide Church of God and will probably be modified, if not repudiated.

This doctrine is the last vestige of Herbert W. Armstrong's legacy as a false prophet. Will the current president, Joseph Tkach, have the courage to retire it as he has Mystery of the Ages?

 

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/britisrl.htm

 

 

[Yosemitest]

Look, it's been a long time since I read "Mystery Of The Ages" and I'd love to read it again. But I don't remember Herbert A. talking about 'coded'.

The 10 lost tribes are covered very well in the two booklets I recommended earlier, "tender twig" ("even the king's daughters" and Isaiah 37:31-32 )I believe was the reference in the Bible from Jeremiah's commission.

Notice the isles afar off and take a look at the book "Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright (Hardcover)" by J. H. Allen for more background.

Look .... I'm really not in to recreating the wheel, or defending the messenger when it's the message that's important.
The proof is there, if you'll take the time to look at all the sources.
Satan works hard to protect his counterfeit worship day of "Sunday";. Remember that if you break one commandment, you're guilty of breaking them all.

I don't mean to offend, but I'm comfortable in this, and grow tired of the debate.

[StarCMC]

I am sorry that you are comfortable. I believe the theology (note I am attacking the message, NOT, as you complained, the messenger) of H. Armstrong is flawed in many ways, and has even been disregarded by the very church he founded as being unbiblical. If you grow weary of the debate, then you’d be wise to not bring up the topic and then disingenuously ask people what they think. You did not want to know - you only wanted to proselytize. I sincerely hope you see the errors in your beliefs before it’s too late. Regards.

[Yosemitest]

Explain "denial of the Trinity". And justify the trinity theory with John 1: 1-4, 5-14.

As best as I can put into words, the Holy Spirit is like the power of electricity flowing through the wire. It has no self-conciencousness of its own, but belong to the Father and flows through Christ.

[Yosemitest]

Post #58. Huh? I only want to pass to you knowledge.