Posted on 08/05/2009 6:40:35 AM PDT by Edward Watson
prove it-don't be a cop-out
LOL! Actually, this is just my SECOND article on the birther issue. My first post received just about a thousand comments and nearly 8000 views. Fully EIGHT (IINM) of those 992 comments were mine, ALL in reply to specific posts of others.
So, let me see if I understand you. *I* am not allowed to *respond* to the posts of others and whatever OTHERS post in a thread I started, miraculously end up as coming from me.
Nice! And *I’m* the bad guy just because I’m pleading for sanity among so-called conservatives to keep the credibility of the Free Republic???
Andrew McCarthy of NR and many other "reputable" figures agree that he ought to make it public, and who gives a sh*t that the media is distorting a reasonable Public Request for Information into being the work of fanatics?? For crying out loud, how cowardly is it to buckle to that?
If Edward Watson has the long form birth certificate proving that Obama is a natural born citizen, why not show it and collect the $100,000 being offered as a reward? Why not collect that money?
That’s the real question for Edward Watson. If you don’t need the money, prove Obama is a citizen, collect the money and we’ll split it since you’re not in any hurry to collect it.
It is people like you that guarantees the end of the most beneficial society in history. Benjamin Franklin’s saying, “We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately” is quite appropriate. The ONLY way for conservatives to rescue America and stop it from going off the cliff is for ALL of us to band together, work together, and support one another against the forces that are trying to destroy us.
Regardless of our religious differences, Mormons are the most conservative of any religious denomination in the US. Mormons are also the most united, prepared, and regionally concentrated of any religious group, with the unique distinction of increased activity and faithfulness among the more educated.
If and when the nation collapses into chaos and civil war; WHERE will civilization, rule of law, and the Constitution remain inviolate aside from the Mormon heartland?
You cannot move beyond your bigotry against Mormonism. I have had hundreds of debates and discussions, here in Free Republic and elsewhere, concerning the LDS faith and not once has anyone been successful in disproving it or showing it isn’t a Christian faith.
We freely admit we’re not Roman Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Christian, or Anglican/Independent Catholic. We belong to the FIFTH branch of Christianity. We believe every single thing the Bible teaches about Christ. Where we differ are on unbiblical beliefs and practices - just like the other four branches.
What in the world do you call a religion that teaches Jesus Christ is God incarnate, the only begotten Son of God, who is the Savior, Redeemer, and only way to heaven? Pagan???
“I bear a simple witness to your statements about my faith, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior, my redeemer and my only path to salvation, irrespective of what you may believe or say about it. In the end, I am grateful that He, a perfect Savior, will be the judge of my heart.”
Once again my conscience will not allow me to let you have a free pass on that statement. One of the most despicable things about mormon teachings is how they use what sounds like “Christian” terms. However, they mean entirely different things to a Morman than to a true “Chrisitian.” That is why I call Mormonism “Chocolate covered poison.” Superficially it looks like the real stuff, but if you partake of it...it mean spiritual death. There are plenty of folks here on FR that have posted very long treatises on this.
“Again, I ask you to reconsider. It’s up to you. I do not need to and will not ask a moderator. Your statements have dispareged me, my entire family, many of my freinds, and in truth, IMHO, anyone who values civil discourse, whether LDS or not.”
I stand by what I have written. If saying the “truth” that your beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, are bogus and eternally dangerous is disparaging to you and yours. Then so be it. There are many out there, besides mormons, that then need to be so disparged.
I WILL say one thing that I want to make clear. I have no problem with you spreading what you believe (although I and others will challenge it...as my own beliefs are challenged here). Ultimately, what you believe, or don’t believe for that matter, is an individual “decision” between you and God (or whatever deity, or no deity, that someone subscribes to). I can’t make you believe or not believe anything. I can only spread what I believe is “true” Christianity and leave the persuasion up to the Holy Spirit.
Also, although I think Mormon theology to be fatally flawed and quite franky...damning. I can say that you will not find a more “morally” upright group of persons than genuine Mormons. The opposition to homosexual marraige in CA was a result of Mormons and Roman Catholics. I cannot help but appreciate that. I wished I could consider mormons Christians...but I know that would be a lie and a horrible disservice to you in God’s eyes. It gives me NO pleasure to have to say derogulatory things about Mormons.
Unfortunately, the “I’m OK and your OK” view of religious beliefs is dead wrong. It may make “peace” in this life, but it damns to hell many.
I can tell you this, you do not know my heart, and the audacity of you trying to judge my own heartfelt convictions in my Savior Jesus Christ are misplaced...that's Jesus Christ born of mary, taken to Egypt when young to avoid Harrod, taught in the Temple in His youth, turned water into wine, healed the sick, raised the dead, taught the Gospel to and called his disciples...crucified for the sins of the worldand buried, rose the third day in a glorious resurrection and Who will return one day to bring peace to this Earth...do you get my point? The Jesus Christ I worship is the Son of the living God.
If you think that you can reach into my heart and pronounce judgements as you have done towards my faith, I tell you now, in all humility and truth, you are wrong.
What you are doing is disparaging and alienating people whom should be (and would be) your friends and allies if you would simply release your bias and judgements against them.
I tell you sincerely and with no animosity, that your judgements are wrong. All doctrinal issues aside, on the critical points of Jesus Christ, Him crucified, and Rededemer of the world, which in the end is the saving doctrine, which if sincerely held will bring men and women back to Him, we can be, and should be allies.
I was raised a southern baptist. I love my baptist friends, and have pastors and close friends and deacons in the church who know I am a Christian and have no problem voicing it. You know why? Because they know me and have seen me interact with others, including themselves out of my Christian faith.
Sorry to go on...but your judgemental pronouncements are so alien to what we as Christians ought to be doing together in this time of turmoil, that I could not help furthering my witness to you regarding the same.
II Chron 7:14 (I believe that, and am doing all I can to achieve it)
I will let is rest now. Say what you will...my statements and witness stand for themselves and others can also judge for themselves.
I don't know if you are familiar with my posting history (I know Jeff is) but I am NOT a Mormon and indeed, I am a Former Mormon. That being said, I do not believe it is either fair or proper to use a man's religious beliefs as a club to use as proof that they cannot think logicially or rationally because they are a member of the LDS Church, or Bhuddist, or Hindu, or any other spiritual belief system (Islam excluded for obvious reasons).
FWIW the Traditional Historical Christian religion does not pretend to be a "rational" belief system. Indeed, Paul admonishes us that it is, in fact, totally irrational and that to the "natural man" it is foolishness.
IOW Christianity is objectively as irrational as any other religion and in order to be a Christian, or a Mormon, or just about any other religion (I would include evolutionist in that category) you have to suspend rational belief and accept certain doctrines or historical events on faith.
So in this case I would admonish you not to pretend that you think more rationally than the author of this thread or Jeff Head or anyone else simply because they have for whatever reason embraced the LDS Church and God in his grace has led you to believe in the manner in which you now believe.
There is no rational basis for a belief in the Gospel of Christ. It is something that makes no sense at all until you have embraced it, then it makes all the sense in the world.
So that being said, I think you owe it to Edward and Jeff and to Mormons in general to retract your statement. It is neither true, nor a good witness for Christ.
Hussein himself claimed on his Fight The Truth website that he was a Kenyan/UK citizen from birth up to 1982 and his Indonesian school records released by the AP prove that it is impossible for him to have not been an Indonesian citizen. That’s THREE foreign citizenships combined with the fact that there is zero evidence he has ever been a US citizen.
Again, citizens of other countries CANNOT legally be POTUS...
“I was raised a southern baptist. I love my baptist friends, and have pastors and close friends and deacons in the church who know I am a Christian and have no problem voicing it. You know why? Because they know me and have seen me interact with others, including themselves out of my Christian faith.”
IF ANY “Southern Baptist” genuinely accepts you as a “Christian” they are either lying to you or ignorant fools in regards to scripture and theology and really should not call themselves Southern Baptist. Sadly there are liberal (Jimmy Carter types) still lurking in the Southern Baptist Convention. Half the so-called Southern Baptists in Texas have gone over to the liberal side. I honestly don’t know why they continue to call themselves Southern Baptist. They are only “nominal” members of the SBC. It is shameful for me to even have to mention them.
There is NO more hateful an act than to tell a lost sinner (in this case a mormon) that he is a “Christian” when he clearly cannot be in accordance with solid Christian/Biblical (Sola Scriptura) theology. These SBC friends of yours don’t seem to grasp that moral behavior is not necessarily evidence of being a Christian.
Whatever, I will not back down. Mormons are NOT Christian, and to buy into mormon beliefs is naive and irrational (or to be horrible deceived). Argue all you will....it won’t change a thing. Throw away your Mormon books and literature and stick with the Bible alone - and NOT seen through mormon glasses that distort. There you will find the whole truth...the kind that trully saves from sin. This is NOT to be found in mormon teaching. This is the audacious truth. So, if I have audacity, I am glad of it.
I think we have both staked our positions clearly. I honestly bear you no ill will...in fact I am concerned about you, your family, and any you may corrupt in your deceived state. May God have mercy on you and grant you true repentance from heresy and grant you saving faith.
BTW - I DO NOT consider myself intrinsically better than you. If anything I consider myself to be a vile person in my own being. ANY good that may be in me comes from God. Without Him in the person of God the Son, Jesus Christ, I would be totally hopeless and helpless.
“Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see.” John Newton
“Could my tears forever flow. Could my zeal no langor know. These for sin, could not atone. Thou must save, and Thou alone. In my hand no price I bring. Simply to Thy Cross I cling.” Augustus Toplady
“So that being said, I think you owe it to Edward and Jeff and to Mormons in general to retract your statement. It is neither true, nor a good witness for Christ.”
I do not agree, and I think your statements ARE NOT a “good” witness for the Lord Jesus. NEVER defend what is not defensible...mormonism is not defensible. It is his choice, but it is the wrong one.
BTW - You would do well to read more C.H. Spurgeon (posted on your page) than the watered down gospel in the form of the (also posted) Four Spritual Laws. The theology of the two are opposed. Spurgeon would never go for such things. He certainly would NEVER speak in defense of a heretical cult.
Now you are disparaging and castigating good men and women whom I know and love who know me, who know my heart, who have been involved with me in all manner of mutual acts of Christian charity, and I with them. Yet you presume to sit in judgement of them from a distance and call them liars.
Pretty sad actually.
I will pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ for you, that your heart will be softened and filled more with the spirit of Christian charity and humility. I can do no more.
Christ himself said no man confesses Jesus Christ except moved upon by the Holy Spirit. I confess Him to you now, once again as I have done on several occassion in our conversation, in all humility and sincerity. That witness of Christ will stand despite your pronouncements to the contrary.
Other than that, I have already answered. Others will read and judge for themselves.
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost 1 Cor 12:3.
But he, being an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, spoke for Him, and therefore, they were Christ's words.
What we know of Spurgeon is what he spoke from the pulpit, not what he spoke in common conversation. I doubt very seriously if he would have attacked a political argument by claiming that the person he was speaking to was not worthy of respect because he had different religious views than Spurgeon.
You want to disparge people for their religious beliefs, do it on the religion threads. The rationality of Edward Watson's political views has nothing to do with whether or not he is a Mormon or a Hindu or anything else. His arguments stand on their own.
Unfortunatly yours don't.
A conspiracy is a secret plot.
No one is accusing anyone of any secret plot. They're saying Obama has refused to release his long form birth certificate.
That's either a fact or it is not a fact.
Here's a question to you, EWatson: Has Obama released his long form bc or hasn't he?
OK, then the rational people who merely want Obama to release his long-form BC should either disavow the "COLB is fake" nuts or at least tell them to shut up.
“You want to disparge people for their religious beliefs, do it on the religion threads. The rationality of Edward Watson’s political views has nothing to do with whether or not he is a Mormon or a Hindu or anything else.”
No I am using a person’s obvious gullibility to question their credibility. Standard court room procedure. If he is foolish enough to buy into Joseph Smith’s flim flam, he has no business telling others that they are being scammed. The whole underlying thesis of his arguement.
The same can be said of your spiritual beliefs. There are a lot of people who think only a fool could believe in God or that God would become a man and dwell on the earth.
It's good to know that you think you were good enough and smart enough to be saved and delivered from error. Congratulations.
“The same can be said of your spiritual beliefs. There are a lot of people who think only a fool could believe in God or that God would become a man and dwell on the earth.”
True, but even the secular mind can look at the evidence of Christ and realize he wasn’t a flim flam artist. The same cannot be said for Joseph Smith.
“It’s good to know that you think you were good enough and smart enough to be saved and delivered from error. Congratulations.”
Nope, a stupid, blind, undeserving wretch recused by unmeritied Grace of God. Now who is being insulting? Go for it....you are being the hypocrit you accused me of being. Plus, you are giving aid and comfort to Satan’s (unwitting) servants. Are you sure you want to pursue this further?
You are now being obtuse in not grasping my point. Let is go. At this point nobody is even reading anymore.
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