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To: B-Chan
Human beings have the positive and Divine right to daily bread, health care, and other aspects of human dignity.

If by "positive" you're referring to a system of positive law, which system are you referring to in the context of a right to "daily bread, health care, and other aspects of human dignity"?

As for Divine right, what authority are you referring to here as the basis of a right to daily bread and health care? What Scripture? What Tradition?

In his Luciferian quest for individual Liberty, however, Western man has destroyed the Divinely-ordained social order under which the Church provided these goods.

Which "Divinely-ordained social order" are you referring to? During the Late Middle Ages, we had a disintegrating feudalism and a nascent capitalism. Which do you prefer? In terms of a political order, we find political entities such as kingdoms, republics, and empires (among others). Why no valorization of empires or republics on your part?

As a result, the heavy hand of the State will now intrude into every aspect of public life in its futile attempt to build a just society.

I've read that the EU will be able to avoid the "heavy-handed State" problem. You see, they've got these principles of subsidiarity and solidarity in the EU constitution, and as everyone knows the mere presence of these principles is sufficient to protect a people from tyranny...

...or not.

And although it is true that the modern State is...well, modern, it's also the case that many pre-Modern governments could be heavy-handed, too (especially when it was tax time). Just ask the Christians under Nero or Diocletian.

Ironically, the worship of individual liberty instigated by the "reformers" of the Church and the secular counterparts of the "enlightenment" has destroyed the liberty under God that individuals once enjoyed as organic parts of the Catholic and medieval social order.

Please be specific.

Do you mean the "Catholic" and medieval social order that had polities that were so weak that Viking, Muslim, and Hungarian raiders (and armies!) could attack at will for centuries?

Where famine and plague ravaged urban poor and serfs in the countryside alike?

Where those self-same urban poor and serfs had very little of what we would recognize as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? Not to mention no King's Justice, which they couldn't afford.

Where local economies were so cash-starved that elites either squeezed their serfs for what they could get; raided, robbed or cheated their neighbors; or financed armies for the purpose of obtaining slaves to be sold "down south" to labor-hungry Islamics?

THAT "Catholic" and medieval social order?

76 posted on 11/10/2009 5:56:42 PM PST by Poe White Trash (Wake up!)
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To: Poe White Trash
Dear Mr. White Trash,

If by "positive" you're referring to a system of positive law, which system are you referring to in the context of a right to "daily bread, health care, and other aspects of human dignity"?

By positive law, I mean we are each and severally charged by God with providing food for the poor, water for the thirsty, etc. I'd be happy to provide Scriptural references if you need them.

As for Divine right, what authority are you referring to here as the basis of a right to daily bread and health care? What Scripture? What Tradition?

The Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition of the Catholic Church as taught by the popes and bishops in union with him since the Ascension of our Lord.

Which "Divinely-ordained social order" are you referring to? During the Late Middle Ages, we had a disintegrating feudalism and a nascent capitalism. Which do you prefer?

Feudalism, as I made clear in my original post.

In terms of a political order, we find political entities such as kingdoms, republics, and empires (among others). Why no valorization of empires or republics on your part?

The Empire was the ultimate earthly expression of the Divine social order. I do not "valorize" republics because they are based upon the idea of popular sovereignty, which is anti-Christian.

Do you mean the "Catholic" and medieval social order that had polities that were so weak that Viking, Muslim, and Hungarian raiders (and armies!) could attack at will for centuries?

Yes, just as our postmodern social order suffers from attacks from Islamic raiders and armies today.

Where famine and plague ravaged urban poor and serfs in the countryside alike?

Yes, just as famine and plague ravage our urban poor and propertyless "serfs" today.

Where those self-same urban poor and serfs had very little of what we would recognize as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"? Not to mention no King's Justice, which they couldn't afford.

Yes, just as the poor cannot afford the high cost of justice in our "enlightened" society.

(NB: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is not a Christian tradition; it is a slogan of the anti-Christian "enlightenment".)

Where local economies were so cash-starved that elites either squeezed their serfs for what they could get; raided, robbed or cheated their neighbors; or financed armies for the purpose of obtaining slaves to be sold "down south" to labor-hungry Islamics?

Have you ever cracked open a history book? Yeah, those bad old elites of the middle ages! It's a good thing our God-fearing, Bible-believing modern elites never squeeze their "serfs" to line their own pocketbooks! It's a good thing our capitalism-believin', free-enterprise-worshippin' elites never raid the public treasury, rob the working man, or cheat the system for their own personal gain! I'm so glad the feudal system is gone so that we no longer have gigantic corporations investing in repressive overseas regimes for the purpose of obtaining wage-slaves to be sold "down south" to labor-hungry sweatshop owners!

With all due respect: you, sir, are ignorant. I cannot have a reasoned discussion of the facts of history with someone who is unaware of those facts -- meaning you. Get back to me when you've read enough to have a grownup discussion on this topic.

91 posted on 11/10/2009 7:26:40 PM PST by B-Chan (Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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