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On "Birthers," Heed "Radio Patriot," Not Glenn Beck
WEB Commentary ^ | January 6, 2009 | Michael J. Gaynor

Posted on 01/06/2010 9:27:28 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet

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1 posted on 01/06/2010 9:27:29 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

What’s to comment? Birthers have earned and are worthy of ridicule. It’s just dumb. Glenn Beck was right.


2 posted on 01/06/2010 9:30:51 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
hey vet nice post lot to digest..John Gibson says obozo is holding out to make the REP look like idiots, but I agree something not right, but do you think every cat swallow the canary?
3 posted on 01/06/2010 9:34:05 PM PST by FreeperFlirt
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To: FreeperFlirt

Why can’t he just show his OFFICIAL birth certificate and end this controversy?


4 posted on 01/06/2010 9:38:08 PM PST by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
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To: Ramius

It’s just dumb? Let me get this straight are you saying the “natural born citizen” clause in the US Constitution, you know...

No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President

So that is dumb, huh?


5 posted on 01/06/2010 9:39:06 PM PST by WVPatriot
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

There is nothing “dumb” about exposing the truth of this matter as it goes to the heart of adhering to & respecting the letter of the Constitution.


6 posted on 01/06/2010 9:40:28 PM PST by Republic_of_Secession.
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To: Ramius

I dont believe in coincidences.There is just too much crap this bho is ramming through at lightning speed that will bring this country down.I am amased at the people who just give the muzzi a pass.


7 posted on 01/06/2010 9:41:21 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: CaptainK

I agree but if obozo was born in Kenya don’t you think somebody would spill? obozo may be the bigger hoaxer than Madoff~~~


8 posted on 01/06/2010 9:43:04 PM PST by FreeperFlirt
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

It’s obvious no one on Beck’s staff is a freeper.

Barry Soetoro is a FRAUD from any angle you look at him. He didn’t write his own books. We don’t know what his legal name is or whether or not he is even a U.S. citizen. His entire past is either scrubbed, sealed, or made up.

C’mon Beck. Question with boldness and pull till ya hear a pop,


9 posted on 01/06/2010 9:43:09 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothin')
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
"Glenn Beck on birther issue: 'Dumbest thing I've ever heard'" (January 4, 2009)

Why take it to that extreme, Glenn?
The dumbest thing you've ever heard?!

He doth protest too much methinks.

10 posted on 01/06/2010 9:48:54 PM PST by Semper Mark (Life is a series of sucker punches. Protect yourself at all times.)
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To: FreeperFlirt

Obama is ineligible to serve as President because his father was a citizen of Kenya and a British subject under the British Nationality Act at the time of Obama’s birth.

Regardless of where Obama was born, he is ineligible to serve as President of the United States on that fact, alone.


11 posted on 01/06/2010 9:49:41 PM PST by WVPatriot
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To: WVPatriot

Yeah, it’s pretty dumb. Seeing as he was born in Hawaii, he’s a Natural Born Citizen.

If there’s any proof otherwise... lets see it.


12 posted on 01/06/2010 9:51:25 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Ramius
Seeing as he was born in Hawaii, he’s a Natural Born Citizen.

You got proof of that?

13 posted on 01/06/2010 9:55:23 PM PST by whatisthetruth
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To: imahawk

Oh... he’s a huge threat. Don’t get me wrong. Obama is a communist and a threat to everything we hold dear. But this nonsense about being born in Kenya just doesn’t seem to have any actual facts to back it up.


14 posted on 01/06/2010 9:55:40 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: CaptainK
Why can’t he just show his OFFICIAL birth certificate and end this controversy?

How would this end the controversy? Most of the major players who have filed eligibility lawsuits maintain it doesn't matter where he was born (though Orly Taitz has hedged her bets by submitting as evidence a pair of laughably ridiculous "Kenyan" birth certificates).

Obama could whip out a gold-plated long form Hawaiian birth certificate signed by God himself and it won't make Taitz, Berg, Kreep, Apuzzo, Donofrio and the rest of this jolly gang go away.

15 posted on 01/06/2010 9:56:07 PM PST by Drew68
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To: WVPatriot

There has been much debate over what constitutes a natural born citizen. Much of the debate has been misinformed calling the concept of natural born an obscure technicality or an overight by the writers of the Constitution. Neither of these characterizations are true.

Many times the true meaning of consitutional wording must be determined by looking at the era and the circumstances, and, in some cases, terminology in other sections of the constitution, the inclusion or exclusion of supporting verbage, and even writings other than the Constitution.

Article 2, section 1 of the Constitution states, “No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of president; neither shall any person be eligible who shall not attained to the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United Satates.”

The addition of a grandfather clause in this paragraph says a lot as to the meaning of natural born. The first thing it says is that being born in the US is not enough to be natural born, otherwise the grandfather clause would not be necessary. The writers and delegates, having been born in the US, wanted to be eligible for the presidency, but most were the children of British subjects. Knowing that that eliminated them from being natural born and, thus, from eligibility, they included the grandfather clause which expired when the last person alive at the time of the ratification of the Constitution died. So, being a native born citizen is not the same as being natural born. If it were the framers would not have included the clause.

When asked to define natural born citizen, John Bingham, the author of the 14th ammendment which extended the bill of rights to former slaves, stated, “Any human born to parents who are US citizens and are under no other jurisdiction or authority.” The Naturalization Act of 1790, also passed by this congress, declared “And the children of citizens of the US shall be considered as natural born, provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been a resident of the US.” Neither of these definitions, one from US law, mentions birthplace, only the parents’ citizenship.

This concept of citizenship by blood as opposed to citizenship by geography is a concept with a long history in British common law. A law passed in 1677 says that natural born citizens are those persons born to British citizens, including those born overseas. Alexander Porter wrote an article over 100 years ago in which he declares that the framers drew upon this difference in the law of heredity and territorial allegiance to define a third class of citizen applicable only to the eligibility to hold the office of president. According to Morse, “the framers thought it wise to provide that the president should at least be the child of citizens owing allegiance only to the US at the time of birth.” He goes on to say that the the eligibility of the president “was scarcely intended to bar the children of American citizens, whether born at sea or in foreign territory.”

The concept of citizenship by blood also precludes the equation of natural born with native born as the latter strictly demands geographical requirements.

Many argue that Barack Obama was eligible to be a state senator and a US senator and could not suddenly be ineligible to be president, but that is exactly the case. If this premise were true, Arnold Schwarzenegger, governor of California, would also be eligible to be president, and it is established that he is not.

Barack Obama has proudly and publicly stated that his father was a citizen of Kenya. We know his mother was eigteen years old when he was born. These two facts make Obama ineligible to be president. No birth certificate is needed as proof, and it doesn’t matter at all where Obama was born. His father’s non-citizenship is all the law requires. He is ineligible from the beginning, meaning he is NOT the president and can be removed from office without any impeachment or trial, it requires only a ruling by the SCOTUS. HE is, in fact, a usurper, a pretender or a fake.

So why has Obama been shepharded into our highest elected office regardless of the fact that he is, according to his own statements and the law of the land, ineligible for that office? It is because those whose responsibility it is to insure the eligibility of the president, the SCOTUS, has chosen, in violation of the law, not to override the voters that voted for Obama. They are are cowards who violate their sworn oath rather than make an unpopular ruling. We are no longer a republic ruled by law, but, instead have become a democracy with rules made up as we go along, never to be written as law


16 posted on 01/06/2010 9:58:41 PM PST by FreeperFlirt
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To: Ramius

And can you tell me why its nonsense?Do you have that much faith in our gubmint to have vetted this guy?Just how many politicians do you think really uphold the constitutuion?


17 posted on 01/06/2010 10:02:34 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Watch Beck’s ratings drop sharply over the next few weeks.


18 posted on 01/06/2010 10:02:40 PM PST by montag813
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To: whatisthetruth

I’ve seen the Governor of the State of Hawaii personally certify that Obama was born there. That’s pretty good documentation, compared to what most of us have. Heck... I was born in Arizona, but I’ve never been able to get the Governor to personally endorse my vital statistics like that.

All I’ve got is a birth certificate. I don’t have a sitting Governor’s endorsement. That would be better.


19 posted on 01/06/2010 10:03:13 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Ramius

According to factcheck, quote, “When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948.

Factcheck continues: “That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.’s children.

Factcheck continues: “Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.” End quote.

Thus, this is a direct admission that Barack Obama was a British citizen “at birth”.

Since Obama had dual citizenship “at birth,” and therefore split loyalties “at birth,” he is not a “natural born citizen” of the United States of America. A “natural born citizen” would not owe allegiance to any foreign sovereign “at birth” if and only if both parents were, themselves citizens of the United States of America at the time of the child’s birth!

The Framers of the Unites States Constitution carefully chose the words “natural born” and those words CANNOT BE IGNORED. Those words can not mean the same as “citizen” in the 14th Amendment.

The status referred to in Article 2, Section 1, “natural born citizen”, pertains to the status of the person’s citizenship “at birth”.

Born in Hawaii? . . . DOES NOT MATTER! Because Obama was, “at birth”, a British citizen, it is completely irrelevant whether Obama was born in Hawaii or abroad.

Either way, he is not eligible to be President.


20 posted on 01/06/2010 10:04:16 PM PST by WVPatriot
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To: Ramius

Sadly, that is one of the most disappointing posts you’ve ever made at FR, that I’ve read! If a Russian child is born in Hawaii, is that child eligible to become president? ... Just being born in Hawaii doesn’t make one eligible according to the founders use of the term ‘natural born citizen’. But of course, if, like Beck, you just want to ridicule and insult folks, continue your ‘dumb’ remarks. And for goodness sakes, don’t do any digging into the facts of the issue when you can pass gas, er, judgment so readily.


21 posted on 01/06/2010 10:04:47 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Obama appreciated Glenn’s loyalty yesterday, because czars can not hurt Obama...his ineligibility CAN.


22 posted on 01/06/2010 10:07:17 PM PST by sushiman
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To: FreeperFlirt
There are several “spillers” so far. Just no one listens to them. His own grandmother said she was there when he was born,.......in Kenya. There are several African newspapers that have been captured before they were “cleansed” from the archives that declare him “Kenyan- born Obama”. The mayor of the town he was allegedly born in is building a shrine for him.

Now I'm not saying he was born in Kenya or not, but I am saying we already know for sure his father was born in Kenya and lived there most of his life. That makes Obama Jr. not eligible to be president. " Natural Born Citizen" is quite plain in law as both parents must be citizens of the US and the child must be born in America. Even if his mother wasn't married to Senior, his father will never be American. All he has to do is show a REAL Birth Certificate and all will be cleared up. IMHO, the courts don't want a revolution, so they throw up resistance to try to keep the republic together a little longer. I don't think they realize the damage that they are doing right now.

23 posted on 01/06/2010 10:07:37 PM PST by chuckles
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To: imahawk

No... I’ve got no faith in gubmint to have vetted anybody. Obviously, the media utterly failed to vet this guy. He’s the ultimate empty suit.

Curiously enough, there isn’t actually a “vetting” process for Presidential candidates. Perhaps there should be.


24 posted on 01/06/2010 10:07:44 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Ramius

No , YOU are dumb , or a Commie tool !


25 posted on 01/06/2010 10:08:10 PM PST by sushiman
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To: Drew68
Obama could whip out a gold-plated long form Hawaiian birth certificate signed by God himself and it won't make Taitz, Berg, Kreep, Apuzzo, Donofrio and the rest of this jolly gang go away.

Gary Kreep is the nuttiest of these, running wacky infomercials featuring an ex-con preacher and his truly creepy, midget self. Recall that Gary Kreep was also deeply involved in the Minuteman Project fundraising "irregularities" (to be charitable).

26 posted on 01/06/2010 10:08:51 PM PST by montag813
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Center column 3rd paragraph down:

Source:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=071/llcg071.db&recNum=2
>! you have to turn to page 1291 !>

According to the the principal framer (John Armor Bingham )of the 14th amendment, particularly
the Citizenship and the Citizenship Clause (Defining who was a citizen of the United States) and by Mr. Obama’s
own admission he is not a Natural Born citizen.

“Bingham states: I find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill],
which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the
jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language
of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen… . . –
John Bingham in the United States House on March 9, 1866”

27 posted on 01/06/2010 10:12:59 PM PST by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: sushiman

Ease off ... Ramius is neither of the despicable things you accused of. A pro-life conservative is soemthing you need to learn to recognize. It is also human nature to want to believe something if it is perceived to make less waves.


28 posted on 01/06/2010 10:16:05 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: Ramius

When the daly machine ran this guy they knew there was no vetting process and him being black made any accusations against him racist which scares all the pc crowd to death.There is just so much,too much lack of info on this guy that it is unbelievable to me and others I know.We were raising hell about this guy way before the election and it just fell on deaf ears.Never underestimate the brazeness of politicians of either party to screw the citizenry over.Just look what steele is trying to do now.What a pathetic rino he is.


29 posted on 01/06/2010 10:16:11 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: chuckles
...but I am saying we already know for sure his father was born in Kenya and lived there most of his life. That makes Obama Jr. not eligible to be president. " Natural Born Citizen" is quite plain in law as both parents must be citizens of the US and the child must be born in America.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. "Natural Born Citizen" is only used to distinguish it from a "Naturalized Citizen". The founders needed to exclude any British from the Presidency... to keep a loyalist brit from somehow getting elected and undoing the revolution. Beyond that... they didn't have some special sort of citizenship requirement. Apart from "naturalized" and "natural born" citizen there have never been any other "kinds" of "citizen".

30 posted on 01/06/2010 10:16:30 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: MHGinTN

You lick Glenn Beck’s boots , too ?


31 posted on 01/06/2010 10:20:43 PM PST by sushiman
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To: montag813
Gary Kreep is the nuttiest of these, running wacky infomercials featuring an ex-con preacher and his truly creepy, midget self. Recall that Gary Kreep was also deeply involved in the Minuteman Project fundraising "irregularities" (to be charitable).

Distanced from the eligibility issue, virtually all these characters have been involved in various scams, conspiracies and other shady dealings in their pasts. Yet they're held up as "patriots" to a small but vocal demographic of this forum. Embarrassing, really.

32 posted on 01/06/2010 10:21:01 PM PST by Drew68
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To: FreeperFlirt

The grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1 has nothing at all to do with the citizenship of the delegates’ parents. It has everything to do with the fact that when the delegates were born there was no United States - it didn’t come into existance in any form until 1776. Further it would not come into final form until after the Constitution was adopted. So, the grandfather clause was necesarry because virtually no citizen’s alive at the adoption of the Constitution would have been considered natural born without it. This whole attempt to redefine natural born citizenship to require that a child’s parents were both U.S. citizens is just silliness.


33 posted on 01/06/2010 10:21:17 PM PST by dschapin
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To: imahawk

Actually the DNC sends notices to every state that the candidates are eligible. Obamas were signed by Pelosi. Some have been posted on FR. BUT, there was one posted where the clause about Constitutional eligibility had been removed.


34 posted on 01/06/2010 10:23:42 PM PST by DJ MacWoW (Make yourselves sheep and the wolves will eat you. Ben Franklin)
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To: MHGinTN

Thank you.


35 posted on 01/06/2010 10:24:01 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: sushiman
;^) Nice try! ... Glenn wears sneakers more often than not. And I don't linger over everything Pastor Manning spittles, either.
36 posted on 01/06/2010 10:24:01 PM PST by MHGinTN (Obots, believing they cannot be deceived, it is impossible to convince them when they are deceived.)
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To: dschapin

Exactly.


37 posted on 01/06/2010 10:24:55 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: Drew68
I'm talking about the general public. Not a group of determined litigants.

HE continues to make the entire situation suspicious. If John McCain could present his official BC because of the questions surrounding his birth place why can't Obama.?

38 posted on 01/06/2010 10:27:13 PM PST by CaptainK (...please make it stop. Shake a can of pennies at it.)
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To: Ramius

An interesting exchange I saved from Leo Donofrio’s blog.

“- naturalized citizen

[Ed. An alien comes to this country, follows the laws to become a citizen, swears an oath and becomes a naturalized citizen.]
***as provided by Law

- 14th Amendment native born citizen

[Ed. A person is born on US soil to alien parents who are legally and permanently domiciled here as in the Wong Kim Ark case (although the case should be overturned) - or a person is born on the soil of citizen parents... either child is a 14th Amendment citizen but only the child born of citizen parents is also nbc and as such the 14th amendment was not necessary to make him a citizen]
*** as provided by Law

- statutory citizen

[Ed. a person born abroad of at least one US citizen parent.]
**** as provided by Law

- natural born citizen

[Ed. born on the US soil to citizen parents]

****Natural Born Citizen is the ONLY one attained naturally by NO act of Law .. By Blood and Birthplace..”

Natural Born Citizen status only has relevence in regards to the qualifications for the Vice-President and the President of the United States. It is NOT A RIGHT it’s a REQUIREMENT. It was put in the Constitution to safeguard NATIONAL SECURITY.


39 posted on 01/06/2010 10:32:53 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothin')
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To: Ramius

What part of the following don’t you understand?

“Bingham states: I find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill],
which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the
jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language
of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen… . . – John Bingham in the United States House on March 9, 1866”

Quite clearly any human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States who owes allegiance to any foreign sovereignty can not be a “natural born citizen” which excludes such individuals from being eligible to be President of the United States of America.


40 posted on 01/06/2010 10:38:22 PM PST by WVPatriot
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To: montag813

Watch Beck’s ratings drop sharply over the next few weeks.

You're kidding, right?

41 posted on 01/06/2010 10:39:11 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: dschapin
The grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1 has nothing at all to do with the citizenship of the delegates’ parents.

But the natural born citizen requirement does.

Vattel in Bk 1 Sec 212, states the following.

§ 212. Citizens and natives.

The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.

The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it.

The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born.

I say, that, in order to be of the country,it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.


"If Obama is eligible to be President then so are the sons of Osama Bin Laden, Kim Jong Il and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad if they impregnate an American woman who gives birth on US soil. The very notion is obscene. Such a person might be a US citizen under current policy, but their citizenship is not natural born and they cannot be President and Commander In Chief of the US armed forces."-----Leo Donofrio.


Is there any question why the founders put the Natural Born Citizen requirement clause in the Constitution?






42 posted on 01/06/2010 10:41:46 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothin')
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To: MHGinTN

OK ...you lick his sneakers . Got it .


43 posted on 01/06/2010 10:47:52 PM PST by sushiman
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To: MHGinTN

I was born in Boston (no question about that) in 1936. I have a copy of the the COB, signed in 1969. It states the hospital I was born in, the doctor in attendance, and my mother and father’s names.

It does not include the fact that my father was born in Norway and was not a citizen at the time of my birth.

It does state that my mother was 17.

Question: Am I a natural born citizen?


44 posted on 01/06/2010 10:48:15 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

I remember that.The reason was so that it wouldnt come back on them.They were anything but dumb and that is a fact.


45 posted on 01/06/2010 10:48:20 PM PST by HANG THE EXPENSE (Life is tough.It's tougher when you're stupid.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Jonh Bingham April 1868 :

“May God forbid that the future historian shall record of this day’s proceedings, that by reason of the
failure of the legislative power of the people to triumph over the usurpation's of an apostate President, the fabric
of American empire fell and perished from the earth!…I
ask you to consider that we stand this day pleading for the violated majesty of the law, by the graves of half a
million of martyred hero-patriots who made death beautiful by the sacrifice of themselves for their country, the
Constitution and the laws, and who, by their sublime example, have taught us all to obey the law; that none are
above the law…”

46 posted on 01/06/2010 10:51:25 PM PST by DaveTesla (You can fool some of the people some of the time......)
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To: norge

Natural born citizen status only matters if you’re running for vpotus or potus.

“Question: Am I a natural born citizen?”

No.


47 posted on 01/06/2010 10:52:41 PM PST by Electric Graffiti (Well, we didn't get dressed up for nothin')
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To: FreeperFlirt

Excellent summary. As you no doubt know there are volumes and volumes consistant with what you have explained. The Grotian Society Papers - 1972, the Alexander Porter Morse Treatise on Citzenship, the Joseph Story Papers, writings of Grotius, Pufendorf, Chief Justices Marshall and Waite.

I will mention that the 1790 Naturalization Act was repealed by the 1795 Act, eliminating the extension of natural born citizenship to children of citizens born “across the seas”. Mario Apuzzo made a plausible conjecture that this act in 1790 was to extend the “grandfather clause” of Article II to the children of founders; quite a few of the founders spent much time in England and on the Continent. Their allegiance was recognized, but the authors knew the statute would not withstand a test of constitutionality. Today, it is what it was: “...born in the country of citizen parents”.


48 posted on 01/06/2010 10:55:42 PM PST by Spaulding
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To: Electric Graffiti

Really!?


49 posted on 01/06/2010 10:56:13 PM PST by norge (The amiable dunce is back, wearing a skirt and high heels.)
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To: Markos33

The LEFT is praising Beck now . ‘Nuff said .


50 posted on 01/06/2010 10:57:38 PM PST by sushiman
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