Posted on 09/25/2010 9:47:50 AM PDT by spirited irish
Dear brother in Christ, you speak with the authority of the great prophets of old. That is to say, TRUTHFULLY.
Which likely scares some people to no end. Who, because your words are frightening to them, will have recourse to ridicule and spite of you personally as self-protective devices to shield them from inconvenient truths.
Kill the messenger; then you don't have to deal with the substance of his message.
As if any "protection" can be found in denial of God-given Truth....
Amen!!! to what you said. And may God ever bless you for saying it!
I found a definite resonance between Cardinal Ratzinger's
"One must distinguish between the form of portrayal and the content that is portrayed. The form would have been chosen from what was understandable at the time — from the images which surrounded the people who lived then, which they used in speaking and in thinking, and thanks to which they were able to understand the greater realities. And only the reality that shines through these images would be what was intended and what was truly enduring."
passage -- and what I try to convey with my "How many galaxies could Moses see?" exercise...
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And your
"The only thing I'd add to that is I think it is possible for scientific explanation to benefit from the "big picture" outline of creation given in the Bible. I don't see how science can attack the problem of origin of the universe without it."
Is something I, as a scientist who believes strongly in our Creator and His described creation, might well have written -- except I would have ended it with
"I don't see how science can attack the problem[s] of origin and development of the universe without it."
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Notice that I said, "development" (rather than "evolution") -- which reprises what I wrote in my first comment here, #21:
No condemnation of scientific study is needed...
Nor is denial of the fact that our Creator -- in His own good time -- caused all to things to be, and to develop according to His plan, and under His control.
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That distinction ("development" vs "evolution") brings me right back to the subject of this thread, and deserves a separate comment, rather than just an "appendage" to this one...
When deciduous leaves drop from the tree in autumn, fall to the ground, and decay -- to fertilize and nurture future growth -- is "death" involved?
When you pull a carrot from the ground and eat it, is death involved?
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Without physical death, there could be no continuity of life on this planet.
Your argument fails to distinguish between physical death and spiritual death. And you use original sin (the cause of spiritual death) to argue against the reality of physical death.
Our Lord and Creator designed His life systems on this planet to operate in an endless "recycling loop" -- which requires physical death. Otherwise, his command to "Be fruitful and multiply" would have soon resulted in an absurdity: a planet packed solid with living creatures -- and with no sustenance.
Perhaps you should remove your nose from your Bible for a spell -- and take a good look around at God's creation -- in which you live (and eat dead things...).
Which is the long-winded way of saying: I entirely acknowledge your point and will keep it in mind.
Thank you, dear brother in Christ!
Great post bump!
When deciduous leaves drop from the tree in autumn, fall to the ground, and decay -- to fertilize and nurture future growth -- is "death" involved?
I'm tempted to suggest you deign to crack a Bible rather than gawking at the world and accomodating it, to tell you to look at the Book of Genesis and that the answer is right there, in very plain language: that herbs, plants, fruit bearing trees and seeds were given to both man and beast for food.
But, there again, we're dealing with an apparent supposition of seasons on your part in the Biblical Garden, in order for there to be deciduous trees. Sheer silliness, that. They were running around naked. It's a moot point and does not further your argument.
When you pull a carrot from the ground and eat it, is death involved?
No mention of carrots Biblically, so I can't quite say with any degree of specificity, but I suspect not, seeing as how herbs, plants, fruit bearing trees and their seeds were given to both man and beast by God for sustenance. If it seemed to me that you actually were interested in learning about the matter, I'd perhaps spend a little time on nefesh chayyah. the Biblical breath of life, and the significance thereof. But, it seems you are not, so I won't waste my time.
Without physical death, there could be no continuity of life on this planet.
Without physical death, there would be nothing but continuity of life on this planet. Would you care to rephrase?
Your argument fails to distinguish between physical death and spiritual death. And you use original sin (the cause of spiritual death) to argue against the reality of physical death.
Well, isn't this the novel attempt at splitting the two. The physical and the spiritual were and are intimately connected. There is a physical body and a spiritual body. There is either God in your life and < i>life, or no God with darkness and death. What do you suppose was cursed at the fall, why the physical changes in human beings and animals as well? Do you discard this because it doesn't fit with the current mode of scientific opinion? What else do you reject?
Our Lord and Creator designed His life systems on this planet to operate in an endless "recycling loop" -- which requires physical death.
No doubt a fascinating conjecture in certain circles, but you're just winging it here. You can't seriously believe this planet is a closed loop, can you?
Hold your nose and crack that Bible again, this time the book of Romans rather than Genesis. Tell me, then, why all of Creation suffers and groans, what is the futility to which all Creatures were subjected not of their own will? Spiritual death? Do you believe that wild animals died a spiritual death at the fall? You're right if you do, but only partially so.
Otherwise, his command to "Be fruitful and multiply" would have soon resulted in an absurdity: a planet packed solid with living creatures -- and with no sustenance.
A perfect Creation, prior to the fall of man, is not something to which any comparison can be made to current conditions on this planet. Whether or not you accept or reject the literal reality of this, you have to admit that the world described in Genesis and elsewhere, is not the world we live in today. It's quite different, in fact. Plants watered by mist rising up from the ground and no rain, for one. Refute it as an absurdity all you want, but there it is, plain as day. You certainly seem to reject it; I don't. That's the difference between you and me.
Perhaps you should remove your nose from your Bible for a spell -- and take a good look around at God's creation -- in which you live (and eat dead things...).
I've been worldly for most of my life and still am far too much so, I'm sad to say. I'm fallen and sinful and imperfect, as are you. I profess my sins pardoned by faith in Him. Do you? From our unfortunately pointed exchange thus far (which is all the more amazing since I'm not even sure who you are), I'd say your cracking a Bible and not just reading but actually pondering the meaning outside your modern, scientific bias, might be much more revealing for you, than yet another bout of worldly excess would be for me. So, I'll just take your advice with a grain of salt.
As far as eating dead things, well, back we go to Genesis and just what was given for sustenance to both man and beast prior to the fall. No breath of life, no nefesh chayyah, and therefore no death as physical death is meant and understood Biblically. Plants are described as withering.
This leads to another Biblical occurrence that perhaps strikes you as an absurdity, and that would be the flood. Eating really dead things, things that had the breath of life to lose and die, is intimately associated with this, after the deluge receded. We were given permission to eat animals at that point out of necessity.
So, what exactly was it, that you were advising me to do? A little clarity might be helpful.
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