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To: Nachum
At what point does society...whether a govt board, an insurance company, the family, the market...or even the patient say "enough" ?

As we cross the threshold of 2 workers for every retiree...with the advances in medical care and assisted living, folks are living well into their 80s and 90s fairly regularly.

Are there enough resources in the country to fund every conceivable medical procedure and unlimted assisted care?

Those resources don't exist.

How does a compassionate society decide that allocation of resources? That will be one of our great moral challenges of the next 30 years.

How do we provide unlimited medical care and assisted living for 40 to 60 million people over 65?

Is it even possible?

I say it is not possible.

12 posted on 05/25/2011 10:12:22 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Mariner
it is NOT possible....

taking care of elderly adults is more labor intensive than taking care of an infant...

an infant is small, easily handled...if he has a soiled diaper, its a quick job to clean up...if he needs food or drink, just grab a bottle....they are soothed by rocking or swaddling..

elderly...the sick elderly...are frail...they could still be large, heavy, difficult to turn...they don't swallow properly.....they take a long time to eat....they choke on pills...you can't put them in a safe crib so they don't fall out...."patient rights" etc....but when they do climb out on their own, there is hell to pay....

people in a hospital are not prisoners...if they don't want to eat or drink, then they can't be forced too....

if they don't want to stay in bed, and you can't restrain them or use those "drugs" to help them relax, then you better be prepared for broken hips and skull fractures....

its a no win situation...

so be prepared to keep your elders in your home....because no country can afford one on one care for the millions and millions that will need care....its impossible....

30 posted on 05/25/2011 11:39:27 PM PDT by cherry
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To: Mariner

Reading threads about this issue, I am often reminded of STNG ( Star trek next generation) episode with David Ogden Stiers.
In his characters culture when one reached 60 yrs of age they were expected to die, or commit suicide.
It was considered a stain on the family if they did not.
Since I saw that episode sometime in the 80’s I have often reflected what set of circumstances could lead the USA to implement. Since 0 care has come to be, I no longer wonder what set of circumstances, but when we will be forced to end our lives.

In my life I have met any people who are vibrant productive members of society well into their 7,8,9,10th decade of life.

When I was in trade school in early 80’s, I was in class with retired engineer, he was 74 yrs of age. He went back to school to learn a new trade because he was bored in retirement.

I do not think any govt entity should be able to decide when a citizen should die.
What I was only useful for generating taxes, but now that I am done paying taxes I should die.
As to resources, if we had responsible civic minded pols ( I am killing myself LOL) that were more concerned with fiscal responsibility this would not even be a discussion.

I could go on but I do not like rants, therefore I am done ranting for the night.


34 posted on 05/26/2011 12:00:08 AM PDT by Nailbiter
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To: Mariner
How do we provide unlimited medical care and assisted living for 40 to 60 million people over 65? Is it even possible?

I say it is not possible.

I have to agree, and I am over 65. My mother had a cancer with a near zero survival rate. She refused Chemo and surgery. What would have been the point to gain six months?

Further, every older relative I know who went to a "Home" lived exactly long enough for their insurance and property to be plundered and liquidated, and then at that instant, there was nothing further Medical Science could do.

50/50 chance of recovery? Go for it. 2% chance? Of course not-don't be silly.

53 posted on 05/26/2011 4:03:16 AM PDT by Gorzaloon ("Mother...My Couric itches.")
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To: Mariner
How do we provide unlimited medical care and assisted living for 40 to 60 million people over 65?

Is it even possible?

I say it is not possible.

The answer is, we don't.

The correct answer is to stop propagandizing people into believing that only government can provide, and that government provides everything.

One of the worst things that has been done to people is to convince them that they don't have to provide for their future, because government will take care of their every need once they reach a certain age. Once they reach that age, of course, government turns out to be not as generous as promised--but if they haven't put away a nice little nest egg, they're stuck with trying to survive on the pittance that Social Security gives them, and the substandard medical care that Medicare pays for. (Not that the doctors who provide the care are substandard; just that the care is rationed.)

Once retirees are hostages to the system, of course, they're highly susceptible to the Democrats who are great at convincing people that, if not for them, instead of having little, they would have nothing. Any attempt at trying to shift more responsibility to people is met with screeching from the left, and commercials like the one I heard about recently, showing some conservative shoving Grandma off a cliff.

58 posted on 05/26/2011 5:14:07 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: Mariner
How do we provide unlimited medical care and assisted living for 40 to 60 million people over 65?

Is it even possible?

I say it is not possible.

The answer is, we don't.

The correct answer is to stop propagandizing people into believing that only government can provide, and that government provides everything.

One of the worst things that has been done to people is to convince them that they don't have to provide for their future, because government will take care of their every need once they reach a certain age. Once they reach that age, of course, government turns out to be not as generous as promised--but if they haven't put away a nice little nest egg, they're stuck with trying to survive on the pittance that Social Security gives them, and the substandard medical care that Medicare pays for. (Not that the doctors who provide the care are substandard; just that the care is rationed.)

Once retirees are hostages to the system, of course, they're highly susceptible to the Democrats who are great at convincing people that, if not for them, instead of having little, they would have nothing. Any attempt at trying to shift more responsibility to people is met with screeching from the left, and commercials like the one I heard about recently, showing some conservative shoving Grandma off a cliff.

59 posted on 05/26/2011 5:14:13 AM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: Mariner; Nachum
Unlimited medical care? When, where, and for whom? These are good and worthwhile, and in fact unavidable questions. We'll have to pursue the answers --- dead serious --- in the near future.

But meanwhile, I just want to make two comments in the context of this article:

Except for those who can no longer physically process water (e.g. irreversible multi-organ shutdown, death being imminent) it is always morally required. By sippy-cup, by IV drip, by ice chips, by wet fingers applied to the lips and tongue. Water.
60 posted on 05/26/2011 5:31:20 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Baruch atah Adonai Elohenu melech ha'olam, hamotzi lechem min ha'aretz.)
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To: Mariner
Are there enough resources in the country to fund every conceivable medical procedure and unlimted assisted care? Those resources don't exist.

NOT TRUE! Resources do exist to care for our elderly.

Just go down to the welfare office and see where our resources are going. Walk into any school and see the illegals who are getting free education. Go into any prison or police station and see the resources being thrown at crime in this country. Go into any hospital and see the percentage of illegals (and prisoners) getting dialysis and transplants ahead of the rest of us.

We have the resources.

65 posted on 05/26/2011 6:15:53 AM PDT by ladyjane
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