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Preventing Future Mass Killings
Radio Free NJ ^ | 7/21/2012 | Tom

Posted on 07/22/2012 9:22:02 AM PDT by frithguild

While I'm sympathetic to those who would wish to wave a magic wand to prevent tragedies like the one in Aurora Colorado, we all know that no such magic wand exists. I wish it did. I wish it were possible to simply pass a law and with its passing, prevent all future meaningless acts of violence - or all violence for that matter. If only such a thing were possible, I'd happily support it.

But since that isn't possible, we must tragically content ourselves to deal with what is. If we are to draft our laws based exclusively on what we wish for, then we intentionally consign ourselves to cope with the unintended consequences of poorly designed law. Past experience dictates that instead of doing so, it might actually be better to do nothing at all. But what we should really do is focus on the goals of the policy rather than the intent. And the only way to do that effectively, is to take into account both the benefits and costs of anything we consider. Anything else and we likely do ourselves more harm than good.

If it really would save lives and prevent all violence, then no one would be against the banning of all civilian firearm ownership. Regrettably, that isn't the case. Banning guns doesn't prevent violence, it only disarms the victims and empowers those who are still willing to flout the law. In microcosm, the theater in Aurora where the shooting occurred had a strict 'no firearms' policy. It was a 'gun free zone' as these shooting so often turn out to be. The victims of the shooting all obeyed the law and were unable to defend themselves while James Holmes, intent on murder, was totally unrestrained by it. Similarly, Chicago's strict gun control laws have done nothing to stem the constant flow of civilian blood in shooting after shooting after shooting.

Some are proposing the re-imposition of the Clinton era 'assault weapons' ban, but this is another red herring. Guns which operate identically to the one the shooter used could have been purchased legally under the Clinton era ban - as they are now in NJ, NY, CT and California where state bans are still in place. What's more, even an outright total ban of all guns, wouldn't have stopped this particular killing, which could have been accomplished with Gasoline and a match. The point is that if history has shown us anything, it's that someone intent on murder will always be able to find a way. The only question is, how easy do we intend to make it for them?

If we are going to pass a law which will restrict the rights of 300 million innocent and law abiding Americans, we shouldn't do it haphazardly. At the very least we should be certain that the law will achieve its desired effect. But no gun ban has even been shown to do so. On the contrary, by disarming only those who are willing to obey the law it has often had an opposite effect. Mandatory registration, background checks, psychological profiles and all the other laws which the left wants to pass, would also only effect the innocent and law abiding. Those intent on crime will not register their guns, and those that sell to them will do no background checks from the trunk of their car. These are all laws which punish the wrong people by design.

By all indications so far made public, none of those proposals would have done anything to prevent the Aurora shooting. So the cost to the innocent public would have been very high, and the benefit to the citizens of Aurora would be none whatsoever. That's the real tragedy of laws designed like these. It's simply a reality that passing additional restrictions on the innocent rarely restricts those intent on lawlessness - however much it might make us all feel better to pass such laws.

It's easy to craft policy that's really only designed to sooth our fears or our outrage, or our sense of self satisfaction. But that isn't how effective law is made. An effective law is one which accomplishes the goal it sets out to accomplish at a minimum cost, inconvenience, and reduction in liberty to innocent citizens. That is the world we live in. And it would add deep insult to an already significant injury to pursue the political goal of punishing the innocent, in a vain attempt to eliminate the guilty.

If the left has proposals which they believe are likely to achieve the goal of reducing public violence, I for one would be very interested in hearing them. But since all their past ideas regarding 'gun control' have all failed to accomplish what they set out to, I think it's time for them to begin thinking about new ideas. Punishing the innocent with restrictions has been tried and has failed... so it's time for them to consider something different that at least stands a remote chance of success.


TOPICS: Government
KEYWORDS: gun

1 posted on 07/22/2012 9:22:11 AM PDT by frithguild
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To: frithguild

I think I picked up on the new narrative to set up a false argument. Chris Wallace has re-framed the argument to today on FNS a few times: The answer is not fewer guns, but more guns - this framed the gun-grabbers from the CC proponents. I really don’t think it is quantity, but placement. In other words, those who own their existing guns need to be allowed conceal-carry so they can be effective in the reduction of mass-murder and to be used for individual self-defense.


2 posted on 07/22/2012 9:27:55 AM PDT by SERKIT ("Blazing Saddles" explains it all.......)
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To: frithguild

If I were a politician in a small community I would attempt to model after Israel.

Make open carry commonplace. Insure everyone has a gun, all the time everywhere.


3 posted on 07/22/2012 9:30:56 AM PDT by Eye of Unk (Going mobile, posts will be brief. No spellcheck for the grammar nazis.)
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To: frithguild
If it really would save lives and prevent all violence, then no one would be against the banning of all civilian firearm ownership.

What a stupid statement. Many would be opposed to such a plan no matter what it delivered. We still have our rights, dumbaXX.

4 posted on 07/22/2012 9:35:07 AM PDT by OldPossum ( "it's" is the contraction of either "it is" or "it has"; "its" is the possessive pronoun)
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To: frithguild

Our problem is that the shooter in this case will never face any punishment that he would really fear. He will be coddled, where even the death sentence will be little more than taking a nap. We are too civilized!

Give these types of killers some real pain on the way to death. Sure, some will commit suicide, but some will not. Stop those that you can.

The coverage of these killers should reflect what they really are, Cowards. Unable to deal with the real world.


5 posted on 07/22/2012 9:45:33 AM PDT by dmet
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To: OldPossum

They said this guy spent a month booby trapping his apartment ,so he had a month to wake up and realize what he was doing ,he was going to do anything to make this happen and laws would never stop him


6 posted on 07/22/2012 9:46:06 AM PDT by molson209
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To: frithguild
OK, for something different, let's have the government encourage widespread private ownership and open and concealed carry ... theaters included. Let's not have gun free victim zones. Let's encourage and train a vigilant and self defense oriented citizenry.
7 posted on 07/22/2012 9:49:48 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: frithguild

I is not nor ever will be the firearms. It is the individuals who have them.

When you have about 3 million seriously mentally Ill with homicidal tendencies walking the streets, this is what happens. Get them handled and you go a long way to solving the problem.

These people are NUTS, plain and simple. Yet when they take their medication, they are fine, and many are at the genius level of intelligence. Yet because of lack of funding at the local and state level, these people are not watched by people in the field and they are left to their own devices. BTW, Obamacare cuts further, the funding for mental health organizations.

Remember Ted Bundy? or This?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,578292,00.html

Do you know who is standing next to you in the store?


8 posted on 07/22/2012 9:49:48 AM PDT by crz
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To: frithguild

A smart guy like that could have easily fashioned a horrifying Propane bomb, which would have killed at least half in the theater.


9 posted on 07/22/2012 9:56:11 AM PDT by Paradox (I want Obama defeated. Period.)
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To: Paradox
A smart guy like that could have easily fashioned a horrifying Propane bomb, which would have killed at least half in the theater.

Well then.

BAN PROPANE!!!!!11!!1!


10 posted on 07/22/2012 10:06:01 AM PDT by Lazamataz (I hate the Universe, and it hates me.)
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To: Paradox

The guy had 30 explosive devices and 30 artillery shells. It’s idiotic to be suggesting gun control because of this horrific incident.

http://market-ticker.org/


11 posted on 07/22/2012 10:11:13 AM PDT by MulberryDraw (That which cannot be paid, won't be paid.)
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To: Paradox

I met and rejected a strange PhD-candidate genius guy in school - stalked me for a while
His weapon of choice was cyanide
Luckily he only used it on himself

A canister of cyanide in a theater could have also killed dozens

Until we grapple on how to identify and deal with potentially violent mentally ill, there will be mass murders, by other means if not guns.

Mentally ill people can get plenty of ideas and inspiration from violent “entertainment” in our pop culture


12 posted on 07/22/2012 10:14:38 AM PDT by silverleaf (Every human spent about half an hour as a single cell)
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To: Truth29

We can’t have that. The goal of our governmnet it seems is to have us all cowering and scared everywhere we go.

I can see the day that we will hand over our personal security to a group like the TSA. Searches in theaters, train stations, bus stations, malls, sporting events, you name it.

And of course we will have ALLOWED it with hardly anybody even speaking out against it. Just like we’ve ALLOWED the bastards to get away with taking half of our hard earned money by taxation.

It was a great nation while it lasted.


13 posted on 07/22/2012 10:15:37 AM PDT by unixfox (Abolish Slavery, Repeal The 16th Amendment!)
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To: crz
Yet because of lack of funding at the local and state level, these people are not watched by people in the field and they are left to their own devices.

No offense intended, but that sounds very much like a Democrat-progressive statement. No amount of funding is going to guarantee that every crazy out there takes his meds every day. Hey, wait- there's a great use for those FEMA reeducation camps that they have set up for us conservatives should they retain power...

< /sarc >

14 posted on 07/22/2012 10:16:43 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: frithguild

Most likely this nut simply became afflicted with adult-onset schizophrenia, most likely a paranoid mixed type. He’s at the age of most probable development. No doubt, we’re going hear from his family and former friends that he had been acting increasingly strange during the preceding months.

If this country was serious about stopping these kinds of tragedies, it would mount a sustained national campaign to educate our country about the signs and symptoms of this disease and how to go about getting help for the afflicted individuals.

But that’s not going to happen. For a couple of reasons. First, it’s beneficial to the Communists that run our country for these kinds of massacres to continue, since they can be used to influence a mentally weak public into willingly giving up their 2nd amendment rights.


15 posted on 07/22/2012 10:19:32 AM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Vote Republican in 2012 and only be called racist one more time!)
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To: Truth29

I have a betteridea.

Lest’s pass a law against murder.

That would stop it.


16 posted on 07/22/2012 10:23:21 AM PDT by old curmudgeon
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To: dmet

He will be coddled, where even the death sentence will be little more than taking a nap.

***

It is not.

http://www.freecdtracts.com/heavenandhell.htm

Here’s my plan:

1) speedy trial/conviction
2) altar call by someone good at it
3) pastors available (NOT Muslims)
4) death penalty in 10 days after conviction


17 posted on 07/22/2012 10:24:43 AM PDT by ROTB (Live holy, forgive all & pray in Jesus' name. Trust He is willing & able & eager to ANSWER BIG!)
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To: old curmudgeon

Typos typos


18 posted on 07/22/2012 10:25:14 AM PDT by old curmudgeon
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To: Truth29
"OK, for something different, let's have the government encourage widespread private ownership and open and concealed carry ... theaters included. Let's not have gun free victim zones."

I'm as pro-2nd Amendment as they come, but there's also a matter of property rights to be considered. As stupid as it is, if a theater owner, restaurant owner, mall owner, etc. choose to disallow firearms, so be it. If however, they choose to do so, they need to be held 100% liable for the safety and security of their patrons. In this case, every CCW holder who complied with theater policy and left their firearm at home or in the car, should be entitled to HUGE damage awards against the theater owner for inhibiting their right to protect themselves, and making no accomodation to protect them.

19 posted on 07/22/2012 10:25:14 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack

That would not fly.

First thing the defense lawyer would point out is that you were not forced to enter the property.

In the case of government property; DMV, Post Office, courts, etc., I do believe that they should be required to protect you or pay damages.


20 posted on 07/22/2012 10:30:11 AM PDT by old curmudgeon
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To: old curmudgeon
"Lest’s pass a law against murder."

You left off the sarcasm tag. Encouraging the ability to fight back will give people the tools to resist. Another law against something will just empower those who don't follow the law.

21 posted on 07/22/2012 10:56:39 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: frithguild

This is going to add fire to the Liberal and Obama specific Small Arms Treaty from the UN. The Liberals will let the dust settle and when the time is right let fly with the rhetoric about “ this is why we need the UN’s small arms treaty”. I feel it coming. They will milk this to the best of their ability. Be prepared my friends.


22 posted on 07/22/2012 11:03:28 AM PDT by crazydad (-` sd)
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To: frithguild

A tax on those who refuse to carry self protection devices. You must be a licensed pacifist or face a fine to cover the cost of providing security for you...


23 posted on 07/22/2012 11:06:13 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: old curmudgeon
"First thing the defense lawyer would point out is that you were not forced to enter the property."

Which is my point in responding to the post I was answering. If Government is going to play any role here, it's to make those owners liable. Certainly, the patrons did not have to enter the property for the movie, but nor was the property owner forced to make disarmement a condition of access. If nothing else, the property owner has unequitably applied his policy. In this case, God only knows how many legitimate CCW permit holders voluntarily complied in the belief that the theater owner would enforce their ban. Holmes is proof that the owner(s) didn't.

24 posted on 07/22/2012 11:08:05 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: frithguild

I remember one September morning where 3000 Americans were murdered and firearms were never involved.


25 posted on 07/22/2012 11:08:17 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (When religions have to beg the gov't for a waiver, we are already under socialism.)
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To: OldPossum

Another point to disagree with is that in preventing all violence it would also prevent violence against things like white-tailed deer, pronghorned antelope, wild hogs, bear and elk.

Preventing that kind of violence is immoral.


26 posted on 07/22/2012 11:12:39 AM PDT by reasonisfaith (Why do you seek the living among the dead? (Luke 24:5))
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To: Joe 6-pack
After the 9-11 attacks Congress,in their zeal to write a prescription to make 'near-impossible' the repeat of the attacks gave us the Patriot Act. It resulted in billions of dollars of disruption in movement and free association, to the point now where we have people who did not finish high school groping 5 year olds and wheelchair bound little old ladies. We were told to get a box of masking tape and tape our dooors and windows. This is the level of analysis and prescription government officials came up with. Now, with the Batman/Joker pretext, they move swiftly toward a gun control law. I presume they want to diminish the number of deaths. So....let us move to ban automobiles. Let us ban tobacco usage in the country. Lets ban surgeries and general anesthesia, because it is sure many tens of thousands are maimed or killed in ORs each year than the Joker killed. The prompting now offered up is a convenient leftist agenda of gun control, one which did not work to diminish the number of deaths in Stalins goverance, Pol Pots country, or Castros Cuba. What is it about leftist that they refuse to see cause and effect. Is leftist ideology so blinding that grown people cannot see the act of a derranged individual for what it was...the act of a derranged individual. Everytime an aircrafts goes down with 233 people on board there is not a rush to ban jet aircraft...they seem to see the relational effect,...but never with a tool which is called a gun. They call it a weapon, or better, assault weapon. Gun owners reference them as firearms. The pejorative is obvious for all who hear.

Let us take up the cause of banning all producers of needles and syringes...how many overdoses do we see in this quarter? If only needles and syringes did not exist there would be no heroin addicts and thus no overdose deaths. Better yet,....the Pharmaceuticals. Let us ban all medications...it is true that if one takes too many tylenol or aspirin it will kill. They would obviously say, used properly aspirin and tylenol would be helpful to patients and not kill. Would not the same thing be said of a firearm...if used properly, for what it was engineered and designed for, would not result in Joker massacres.

Here it come, thought, folks. Obama will seize the emotion of the left and Romney had better be ready. He needs to be ready to give a Constitutional reason why gun control is violative of Obamas oath to office. He needs to give a reason why it is more important now than ever not to be guided by the guile of emotion, but rather be deliberative and faithful to the Constitution. Emotionalism can be made to be a weak spot for obama if Romney just gives it a little thought.

27 posted on 07/22/2012 11:15:21 AM PDT by Texas Songwriter (Ia)
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To: JimRed

Really? You rather that about 3 million of these are left on their own then? You mean you would rather that another Ted Bundy or James Holmes is left out there stewing in their demented mind?

There is most likely no way we could cover all..but is it worth it if we cover just one? I want you to go and ask the survivors of that killing if it would be worth it.

This used to be covered under local county administration. You are against that too?


28 posted on 07/22/2012 11:15:42 AM PDT by crz
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To: silverleaf
A canister of cyanide in a theater could have also killed dozens

Yep. Although Cyanide is sometimes detectable by smell, any number of gases would do.. Carbon monoxide, etc. It is simply a fact that in an enclosed area, it is quite simple to kill hundreds, probably easier without guns actually.

29 posted on 07/22/2012 11:50:26 AM PDT by Paradox (I want Obama defeated. Period.)
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30 posted on 07/22/2012 12:25:13 PM PDT by RedMDer (https://support.woundedwarriorproject.org/default.aspx?tsid=93destr)
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To: frithguild

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away!


31 posted on 07/22/2012 12:45:44 PM PDT by Voltage
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To: crz
Really? You rather that about 3 million of these are left on their own then? You mean you would rather that another Ted Bundy or James Holmes is left out there stewing in their demented mind?

The simple (and all too simplistic) answer is that anyone who cannot be trusted with a firearm, whatever the cause, be it criminal behavior or mental defect, should not be running around loose. But confining them all is too costly.

On the other hand, having everyone who desires it armed and trained makes it likely that the damage inflicted by the miscreants will be minimized by those around them.

32 posted on 07/22/2012 4:16:30 PM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: JimRed

Well..they are running around loose and it is illegal for them to own a firearm.
And I was not talking about confining them. If you knew anything at all about the SMI, you would realize that there are several levels.

But then again, you couldnt understand, since you need to understand the simple answer.

And yes, if it was required that ALL LEGAL citizens of the country were armed..you wont get any argument from me on that point.


33 posted on 07/22/2012 7:20:35 PM PDT by crz
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To: silverleaf

>Mentally ill people can get plenty of ideas and inspiration from violent “entertainment” in our pop culture<

And then, they are immersed in marxism and revolution by college professors and their peers. Sometimes, I am surprised we don’t have more of these atrocities.


34 posted on 07/23/2012 8:22:54 AM PDT by Darnright ("I don't trust liberals, I trust conservatives." - Lucius Annaeus Seneca)
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