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To: expat1000

Let me explain it to you simply.

However long I can last, or not, he would last about 1.5 seconds longer. If I can run around the ring, for a minute, he’ll be down in 1:01.5. If I’m down ten seconds, he’ll be down in 11.5 seconds.

In other words, what the man is preaching, is pretty worthless information.


10 posted on 12/03/2012 1:46:55 AM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: Jonty30; expat1000
Let me explain it to you simply. However long I can last, or not, he would last about 1.5 seconds longer. If I can run around the ring, for a minute, he’ll be down in 1:01.5. If I’m down ten seconds, he’ll be down in 11.5 seconds. In other words, what the man is preaching, is pretty worthless information.

I think there is a lot of misinformation - but that the misinformation is about MMA being some sort of self-defense panacea. MMA is a reality-based sport, but it is still a sport. And yes, while I agree with you that in a ring someone like Paul Vunak would probably not win against a good MMA fighter, I can also guarantee that in a street fight that MMA fighter would not last ten seconds against someone like Paul Vunak.

Why? Because MMA is a sport. That is why gloves are won. That is why there are certain rules ...eg some of the very tools Paul Vunak advocates (e.g. fingers to the eye, scrotum pulls, bites to the throat - techniques he has taught to various government agencies such as the FBI's HRT and the Navy SEALS) are banned in MMA. Because MMA is a sport!

Yet many people in the fighting arts always try to downgrade people by bringing up the 'if it is so effective why don't we see it in the UFC.' Well, because it wouldn't work too good in the UFC. For one gloves prevent eye jabs (which are banned anyways), dropping knees to the throat are illegal, and it is quite difficult to bite a nose off with a mouthguard on (any anyways that is illegal too ...and as for biting, one of the things Vunak teaches is kinomutai, which is uninterrupted biting. He had an interesting exercise where he had someone strap a side of beef to his side - interesting what damage aggressive biting can do. Oh, and yes - it is disgusting, but when someone has you in a jujitsu hold it is an easy way to get out, and if it wasn't effective the FBI's HRT wouldn't be wasting time and money learning it).

I am not knocking MMA. I guess the mix of styles I take could be called MMA-ish. However, MMA is not a sport, and why I agree that what Paul Vunak teaches, or what various teachers of systems like Kali and Krav Maga teach, would not be too effective in the ring (since many of the tools they espouse are limited due to gloves or illegal due to rules), I think it is quite short-sighted (to put it kindly) to say that it is 'pretty worthless information.' Why? Because it is not a ring sport? Interesting then that basically all the CQB hand to hand systems taught to Tier 1 and Tier 2 special operations are similar/same to what Paul Vunak teaches. Interesting that they are learning 'pretty worthless information.' To get to anything similar to MMA you have to get to regular armed forces, such as MCMAP for the Marine Corps and US Army Combatives. The moment you get into special operations they are not learning MMA-esque MCMAP, but rather the worthless techniques people like Paul Vunak teach, with Vunak being one of the teachers in the past. Same with the Israelis - the various Sayaret units would be quite interested to learn how worthless the Krav Maga and KAPAP they have been learning for so long is a waste of time, and how they need to go to the Lion's Den or similar MMA gyms and learn how to do a Kimura lock on someone trying to kill them with a surprise knife attack before they could get their firearm. I'm sure they should be teaching MMA style ground-and-pound, or maybe MMA/BBJ spider ground defense (after it works so well for the Gracies) to Tier 1 and 2 operators rather than what they learn. After all, MMA works so well that Ryan Gracie, who died in a jail cell after a bad reaction to medicine given after he was hit in the head by a person that Ryan had tried to steal a motorcycle from, should simply have told that guy to stop hitting him in the head and instead use legal (for MMA and BJJ, though not the street) moves like getting into the Guard position. After all, had the guy trying to stop Ryan Gracie from stealing his motorcycle used MMA techniques Ryan would be alive today. Unfortunately the man used worthless moves that wouldn't work in the ring, and Ryan Gracie died.

Seriously - saying someone is teaching worthless stuff because it is not MMA is quite shortsighted. Especially considering who some of the consumers of this 'worthless' stuff are, and the fact that the only place you'll get MMA style techniques in the military is in normal units. The moment you go into more specialized units they start teaching them more vicious CQB H2H systems, and MMA is laughed at there.

13 posted on 12/03/2012 2:52:44 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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