Posted on 02/19/2014 2:34:29 PM PST by GraceG
It is you who does not understand. I know "the story" well enough -- but the sort of things you continue to harp upon are still not enough for me to in knee-jerk response, back the Russians.
Other stuff, like:
is so messed up. The reality was war being waged on Islamic militants, both in Chechnya and in drone attacks in Pakistan.
But nice way to go muddying the waters there, backwards boy.
Though it matters only little (if any) now, before G.W. Bush sent U.S. troops into Afghanistan, I wrote him a letter, begging him to not do it. Ha! like it would have mattered, but I wrote it anyway, keeping it short, focusing on how in the end, it would engender more hatreds than it would remove.
I could have gone into how the Clinton Admin had totally ignored Afghanistan after the Soviets had pulled out -- and how we (the US) were probably on the wrong side of things in helping the "mujahedin" previous to that...
But why did we oppose Russian efforts there? Was it--our own fears that they would be able to force compliance in Afghanistan enough to link up with Pakistan --and get the warm water port they had always been seeking, while gaining ground and [Pakistani or Iranian] allies to eventually war on the U.S.? Like I said...fears. But not entirely unfounded, perhaps. The cold war was still on, and the Soviet Union had yet to fall...
I considered telling G.W. we should have first apologized to the Russians (Russians at that time -- no longer necessarily 'Soviet') for "Charlie Wilson's war" which helped lead to the deaths of many Russian soldiers (even though they, the Russians went there to make war, on their own, in the first place) --- then after honest and forthright assessment of Islamic extremist threats to civilization in general, including themselves, invite them to help us clean the place out, and subdue it once and for all.
But that would have sounded bizarre at the time. How strange does it sound now, in hindsight -- that is if one could get around other considerations that could pop up in this idea of having re-invited the former Soviets back to Afghanistan about ten years ago -- for we would have been setting stage for what we previously thought we didn't want, and would need to trust that an Islamic card would not be played against us, in the future.
What did we end up attempting as "mission" in Afghanistan, but to subdue the basest instincts there among Islamists who seek nothing other than world-wide Sharia Law, and will continue to harbor, breed, and give refuge for the sort of "world" Islamists who --- if they can get their hands on nuclear weapons, will likely use those against population centers anywhere in the world, including the U.S.?
Moscow is not immune from Islamic crazy-threat, but they have to play their own game of survival as best as they can see too -- which I certainly hope does not end up with any thinking along lines that they and the world would be better off without the United States. YOU seem to keep going that direction, though.
And you tell me I need 'understand it better'? while showing me info going into the morality/immorality of targeted killings of non-State combatants?
OH REALLY?!?
Previously you laid it out like it WAS CIA/Soros, international bankers, etc.
Now, you say "only insiders really know".
This is the sort of back-and-forth I can hardly stand. But I go through it, in hopes others will THINK.
Like Russia is a patron Saint, doing nothing but having Ukraine's best interests in mind?
My putting it as "bridging gaps" was about coming up to the EU standards --- so the Ukraine could be let into that club for trading purposes, but still short of full-fledged membership.
What happened to the "lay the offer on the table" thingy? Once shown to you that was much what the EU was openly attempting to do, in their own awkward it's-got-to-be-up-to-our-standards, Euro Union mindset -- and that the Ukrainians had some interest in it, even as they had and still have interests in having clear lines of business flow and communication with their Russian neighbor also -- now you question the EU's motives?
Of COURSE those of the EU are going to look out for EU interests. That doesn't make them into being the bad guys, just for reason it makes Russians uncomfortable.
It's not like the EU, or the EU and the U.S. is going to try and invade Russia. No, that is not going to happen anytime soon, leaving dealing straight across tables, with rules and laws harmonious enough for square dealings, be enough of a goal, and worthy enough in principle. But as always, buyer beware...the best "rules" not ensuring who in any trade will have greatest advantage, but that the transactions be orderly and transparent enough.
As to games of financial elites -- we have that problem in-house. It's difficult to combat, for it's difficult to nail down. I could go into some recap here of things like the mortgage meltdowns, and the scare tactics used in the so-called "bail-outs" of large investment houses, but it would take too much time...
With the Russians, it's more like straight to "all mobbed up" when it comes to the big money.
You may have otherwise better stated being yourself no longer taken in by "NeoCons". I hear that.
But if you assume I have been...and have been arguing from there, I'm three steps ahead, far enough to see some of what the so-called NeoCons were saying, has some truth to it -- even though on other score (banking) I did catch hell on this very forum for opposing the machinations of the derivative traders forcing into law the blurring of lines of separation between commercial banks and investment bankers (aka-insurance monies invested in markets) many years ago. "How will we be able to compete?" it was demanded of me, along with accusations I was against free trade, etc. I told them -- if you want to play that game, start a company, lease an office at Canary Wharf and play to your heart's content -- just don't come begging when you bet wrong and get yourself all lined up to lose your ass, along with many million$ of investor's funds.
But what happened? I wasn't the only one that saw it coming, had a sense that dismantling Glass-Steagall would end in disaster, but was still taken by surprise with the bankers timing it just right, getting $700,000,000 pledged to the "problem" in the summer before George Bush was to term-limit out of office. It was so easy--- they came right back and doubled down on the same scare tactics during the campaigning leading to Obama's eventual election, leaving McCain flat-footed, even though he had warned about the dangers too.
Yes, there are bankers that play all of us for suckers. That doesn't mean we need blame them for unrest in the Ukraine. They didn't necessarily start it, as a goal, as a plan.
It's far too complicated, and damaging too, to Western interests generally and more widely --- to not let go of that sort of "Putin" talking point.
Just STOP.
You wrote GWB a letter ?
Are you close enough to him that he would seriously read it and be influenced by it ? (then you’re at least a fairly powerful political influencer or operative, so buh-bye)
Are you NOT close enough to him that he would seriously read it and be influenced by it ? (that’s rather pathetic as you’re wasting your time putting letters in the national “suggestion box” which probably just lands you on the Secret Service watch list for nutcases thinking they are an “advisor to the President” in their own minds; it brings to mind the funny routine where Archie Bunker is writing to Nixon)
I’ll give you a way to save face, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you mispoke, or it was when you were young and naive, ___fill in the blank___, etc.
Since you keep accusing me of supporting the Russians or being a Russian operative in nearly every post you make (and you have blamed at least one other longtime FReeper of being on the side of the Russians)...
and I keep repeating that I am against Russia controlling Ukraine
and you keep ignoring those words and again accusing me of supporting Russia controlling Ukraine
I think we’ve just about wrapped up this thread.
I’ll go “write my report” to Putin /LOL do I have to SARC that...
Medved, I will transmit to Vladimir...
and you can go “write your report” to NWO/Bushes/Clintons/CIA/NSA.
Dear Mr. President, Your Honor, Sir:
A. Bunker here...
I actually got a reply back, a few months after U.S. troops were in-country.
The reply letter was as much like a form letter as not, telling me how the President (G.W.Bush) would keep this nation safe, or something along those lines.
Giving me some place to save face? What a joke. That is what YOU continue to attempt for yourself, while slithering along and attack me from standpoint (lay-in-the-mud point?) of own asinine assumptions, while not being able to admit to your own the errors --which included being confused enough to be going against things you claimed you were for. Like--- Ukrainian self-determination.
Right about now, there is a tussle going on inside Ukraine Parliment...ok, it seems to have settled down for the time being Passions are high.
There has been no "coup" (you IDIOT). But there is a fierce political struggle. A coup is when the military takes over. This is closer to verging upon revolution, as the people try to gain back what they worked hard to establish previously.
This guy, is two-faced. Read it. If true, then what is it but Russian-style gangsterism in the business realm?
But the people are too strong. There wasn't enough power on the present government side of things to force the protestors off the Maiden. Ukrainian rivals agree truce to end ‘bloodshed’ By Roman Olearchyk in Kiev and agencies
The impassioned speechifying in the Parliment continues. I don't speak Ukrainian or Russian, so don't know what is being said.
I give up, you win.
But that Guy IS one the side of the Russians. Every time, without fail. Good heavens man, can't you see that jerk is an operative??? Either by accident, due to his own sympathies, or was sent here, which is lesser possibility, but there is something there-- or else the guy is lost, conflicted within himself, searching for something he knows he cannot find.
Look --- I'm sorry for tearing into you, but we've got to pull together here, and not let guys like the stealth Russian distract and divide us.
Look how well and effective he has been thus far. Like a termite, chew, chew, chew.
We have our own problems in this nation, and in the West generally. Sacrificing what we have to give place totalitarian rulers for reason we seek "order" (and the totalitarians of every stripe do promise that, claim it be necessity they be allowed to order everyone around) would be backwards to darkness.
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