Complicated?
He is now underwritten and writes what he is told, it seems obvious.
Man,that was painful to read
Mad Max social tribes are not anarchy, they are an establishment of some kind of order (feudal, dictator, empaneled) in the wake of societal collapse/rejection (anarchy).
And the black flag waving capital A anarchists are Socialist. Socialist Anarchy. They still want universal healthcare with a decentralized governance.
BTTT
Huge leaps to subjective conclusions are always interesting to me. There’s one in the commnets about the tracks in the trees - the comment limits the tracks to “the feds” when anyone could have made them. There is no way for the commneter to know if it actually was “the feds” who made the tracks but that doesn’t stop them from stating a subjective conclusion as if it is an absolute objective fact.
Looked to me like Lavoy went to his shoulder holster and turned to the officer behind him before he was shot.
Do they ever provide any historical support for this claim?
I ask because the latest example of a Constitutional Republic is the United States of America, which has lasted more than 200 years, and is now being transitioned into a socialist, Marxist nation through anarchist actions created by socialists and Marxists.
BTTT.... FYI
Pretty much what I expected.
When it happens, it happens fast.
A couple of thoughts.....
He did come out of the vehicle with his hands up.
It was deep snow and even the law enforcement people are stumbling around in it.
The law enforcement pursuit vehicles show up after the shooting? Shouldn’t they have been right on his tail?
There were places to put a roadblock long before the location they chose.
In a “snatch” operation, you want the person to see that there is no possible escape so that he immediately gives up.
If Lavoy was going to shoot it out, wouldn’t he have run to the back of the truck for possible cover?
Law enforcement had shields and a dog. Why didn’t they use them when approaching Lavoy.
I am still of the opinion that this was a screwed-up “snatch” operation. Though the failure of the pursuit vehicles to pursue is making me wonder if it wasn’t just an ambush.
Law enforcement has changed the story too much and failed to immediately produce evidence.
They are making it look like a coverup.
Perhaps some of these law enforcement personnel should be in a different line of work. And I don’t care about how nice of guys they are.
The mission was to get these people alive.
The mission failed.
An American citizen appears to be surrendering and is killed. Failure should be punished lest we get more of it.
A thought on the issue of political party manipulation of government .
The FBI should be an investigative entity of the Federal Government. The States should provide the arrest, and internment. There should not be an armed Federal Law Enforcement. If the armed military should not perform domestic service (Posse comitatus), why should any other of the Federal entities associated with legal issues? We have seen the possibilities of abuse throughout our lives (IF you’re my age, or older.)
The FBI deems somebody should be arrested for a crime against the people they should provide the State the information, and let the State confirm, or deny the action(a check on the Fed). Action confirmed the State should then pursue the legal action, the arrest, the trial, the incarceration if deemed necessary.
The Fed is out of control, and is malleable politically.
total conjecture and making crap up to fit their agenda. No one can see anything in this video or to put the better, anyone can see anything. Proves nothing.
You cry out when he is shot! He must have had his hands up. He was executed.
Then his cohorts explain the he or out, did not follow instructions, and was shot while making aggressive movements two reds the LEOs. And the cry out is for video.
Then you are show video that corroborates the story. And you cry out the video was bad.
When it is a black kid getting shot by a white cop, there were people on FR telling me I was naive because the black kid was a thug—long before any eyewitness reports were being heard.
But, make it an old white guy—like us—and all of a sudden the rabble turns into an Alex Jones/Art Bell hive of conspiracy.
Folks, you cannot have it both ways.
If you are going to parade around with a firearm strapped to your leg, telling anyone who will listen that you are willing to die....you should expect to get shot when your hand makes the slightest move towards said gun.
And, you should practice getting it out to shoot LEOs.
True democracy does not lead to anarchy ! Because citizens feel empowered
In this sense, he was murdered. The OST has already fired at his vehicle before it hit the embankment, before he even got out of the truck!
Are our law enforcement employees so poorly trained that they shoot anyone who moves?
I have used their training devices. They are better trained than this.
When you are trying to take someone alive, you leave them no chance to escape. I saw the armored vehicles at this place. Why didn’t law enforcement have one there and drive in and close off any chance for escape from the front?
In an ambush, you don’t have your own people in the line of fire. That way you avoid shooting your own people.
I leave it to you to decide.
At the roadblock, did they shut down all the escape routes or did they have clear fields of fire because the pursuit vehicles were not pursuing.
Remember, this was a planned grab. Law enforcement decided where to take these people.
My Father in law is a retired policeman. I have had friends in law enforcement my whole life. I don’t take any pleasure in showing how this was a failed operation.
But it was a failed operation. There is no denying that. They were to be taken alive and one of them is dead. The standard is 100% alive. They didn’t meet the standard. They failed.
If they can’t do that, then they should go into another line of work. Making correct split second decisions is a requirement for law enforcement.
These law enforcement personnel are probably great guys with loving families. I don’t care. They get paid to succeed. They didn’t.
Covering up incompetence isn’t loyalty, it’s accessory.
Their axiom is partly very wrong:
“...if you travel from democracy to a constitutional republic and keep going, eventually you arrive at a place absent of any government. This is anarchy. This is law of the jungle, survival of the fittest. Mad Max type societal tribe formation.”
This is not true, but an illusion created by government to justify itself. Use this chain of thought:
1) How often do you need government, as such, in your daily life? Do not equate government with the things that have been built by government, but think of government solely as elected, appointed, or hired people.
2) Even at a low level, if you think of the government as the police, this is inaccurate. The *people* are the police. The uniformed police are just a convenience so that the people can do other things. Fire departments are more to the point, as they maintain and use powerful fire fighting equipment. But they are still a convenience. If they didn’t do that, ordinary people would have to.
3) Government exists as part of the social contract, an agreement by the majority to have managers of day to day business for the public. But there are plenty of people who live *outside* the organizational part of the social contract. And they certainly do not live in “anarchy”, just an absence of government in most of their lives.
At the local level, government is “hired” to do these tasks. It doesn’t mean you have to have them. But if you don’t, you have to do that job yourself.
On the opposite extreme, it can be said that the two purposes of a national government are defense against foreign armies and nations, as well as criminals who operate at the national level. A third purpose is to mediate between state governments. And some other things.
Lack of government does not mean anarchy or chaos.
(reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAGxDWKrjPQ )
Table 1.
FBI video approximate
event timestamp run time location
A video start 25:32 0:00 N 43.80438 W 118.98939
B stop 26:42 1:10 N 43.81393 W 118.98290
C leave 33:48 8:15 unchanged
D roadblock 34:48 9:15 N 43.82744 W 118.97138
Table 2.
approximate duration estimated
description distance (miles) (mm:ss) average mph
event A - event B .75 1:10 40
event B - event C n/a 7:05 n/a
event C - event D 1.12 1:01 66
Misc.
The roadblock was inside the Malheur National Forest.
Based on online "street views" I believe the limit on US 395 is 55 mph.
Based on various National Highway Traffic Safety Administration publications, a
passenger vehicle traveling 60 mph requires 216 feet to stop. Of course this is
a generalized figure which does not take into account the combined mass of a
particular vehicle and its occupants or cargo. Total mass, vertical & horizontal
sight lines, driver reaction time, road conditions, etc. are all factors to take
into consideration.
bkmk