Posted on 01/26/2017 12:33:23 PM PST by 2ndDivisionVet
Franklin D. Roosevelt's "arsenal of democracy" that helped win World War II has been gradually withering away for two generations. This isn't just a story about other countries stealing U.S. jobs, it also reflects a failure of federal leadership in protecting the industrial foundations of America's military might. Washington is the main customer for U.S. weapons output, so if it doesn't manage the defense industrial base wisely, the base decays.
Consider tank production. Tanks have been the premier expression of land warfare since the first primitive armored vehicles appeared on the Western Front a hundred years ago. But even though the Army and Marine Corps depend on Abrams tanks to defeat high-end adversaries, there is only one tank plant left in America, and that tank plant is turning out a grand total of one main battle tank per month. During the Reagan years, it turned out 60 per month.
The tank plant is located in Lima, Ohio, once a crossroads for America's great railroads that was home to locomotive factories, construction-equipment plants, and the nation's biggest maker of buses. That's all gone now -- Lima's population has declined by 30% since 1970 -- but the tank plant remains. Barely. The U.S. Army, which leases it to General Dynamics Land Systems (a donor to my think tank and consulting client) tried to close it for several years, but Congress resisted....
(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...
And while he’s at it, buy some ammo for those floating radios that are passing as warships.
I worked on the Abrams for about 10 years. It is an awesome weapon. However, the Army doesn’t want it. For years they told General Dynamics this. GD’s response was, sure you do. When Oshkosh, General Defense and one other spent a billion dollars each of their own money and presented tanks based on six ton truck chassis, the Army instantly ordered all the three companies could make. They took the money from the Abrams and Strykers which were not useful in Afghanistan. The tank’s big flaw is a logistics train of mile after mile of tanker trucks that are vulnerable to RPV’s and swarm tactics. No amount of air superiority can defend against those and those tactics are clearly on the horizon.
The tanks can’t be easily moved. Had Saddam Hussein had a single submarine he could have potentially intercepted and destroyed the transport ship causing the loss of up to 500 at a time.
Yes. They are absolutely awesome, but their time is about over.
We shouldn’t be spending money just to spend money.
One reason for the lone monthly tank is that we’ve licensed manufacture to other countries - like Egypt ...
I wonder if anyone has considered mounting the 30mm from an A10 on a light armoured chassis?I think as a support weapon it would be deadly.
Oh sure. Until your own folks are facing the other guy's tanks and then they come in real handy.
I take it that you never served?
Maybe from the ARMY’s perspective, but as a Marine tank Company Commander, I love the Abrams. As an integral part of the MAGTF, their presence is essential to our scheme of maneuver. My caveat is that they should be assigned with LAV’s as scout vehicles. Wrote a paper in support of this prior to the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns that would have helped in Tikrit, Fallujah, Baghdad, etc. Taking the lessons the Russians learned in their Chechen campaigns and applying it to Marine Corps tactics.
I’ve been out for a while, but I think that there must have been advances in diesel engines so that they could use a diesel instead of a turbine.
I read an article a couple of weeks ago where defense wizards were fretting that the Israeli TROPHY defense system was making tanks invincible. They’ll find a way to beat it, but it was interesting to read something besides articles about how tanks are obsolete.
A full bull Israeli colonel at Fort Hood was telling me all about their Merkava tanks as we were still testing the X-M1 and their accompanying APCs, circa 1979.
Yep.
And with their own organic fire support.
And then the Marines would have an Armored Cavalry Regiment.
Maybe they should have one.
Marine tanks are the only non-infantry maneuver unit that can take and hold ground.
“Oh sure. Until your own folks are facing the other guy’s tanks and then they come in real handy.”
No, I have not served. However, I listened to the guys who came to talk to us. They said they had plenty of effective fire support from fighters, drones and other sources that was every bit as effective at taking out heavy targets.
There is plenty of politics and unbelievable amounts of money tied up in this. Weapons do become obsolete. The Israelis lost a large (still classified) number of Merkavas in their Lebanon invasion. The Merkava was designed later than the Abrams and proved vulnerable to missiles carried by two man teams. Any time you can take out a multimillion dollar vehicle with a much less expensive weapon that much less expensive weapon will proliferate.
Another aspect is the Army wanted to upgrade the engine, which is old technology. The current competing vehicles are much more fuel efficient. One reason this wasn’t done was GD was so successful at pressing Congress for funds to manufacture the tank there was no money left over to make the engines more efficient and upgrading the existing tanks. (GD wasn’t making the engines, so somebody else would have gotten the money, therefore it was wasted.) Fuel consumption remains their Achilles’ heel.
We are using the main battle tank that was brand new in Gulf War ONE.
In the last few months, the Russians have rolled out a few new armored vehicles, and are now most possibly, conducting ‘field trials’ with them in the Middle East.
Meanwhile, just like with the good ol’ M16 variant ‘xyz’ from the Colt Company, (Who just re-released the 2017 .... Colt Cobra), who kept pushing that lovely piece of plastic onto the backs of the U.S. military, for years.
The Israelis are really sharp.
They never throw away any weapon. I’ll bet they still have David’s sling in an armory somewhere.
We turned a lot of our tanks into reefs.
Have you seen some of the vehicles they have built on the chassis of an old tank?
Amazing.
They adapt much quicker than we do.
I suppose they have to.
We used to be like that before we were rich. My late father said he saw a warehouse full of muskets once around 1943.
Yep.
For whatever reason, I wound up in the Marine Platoon for my Armor Officer Basic course. Our head instructor was a Marine.
I honor and respect Marine Tankers.
The Ukrainian BTR-4 (Bucephalus) features a 30MM on and IFV. Various other modules available as well. Interesting vehicle/weapon. Many videos available on YouTube.
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