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To: JosephJames
The Church speaks to you..WHY DO WE ALWAYS PUT THE BLAME ON THE NOVUS ORDO MASS OR THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL or on every Pope in this period of time?...A special gift of my Immaculate Heart for these times of yours is the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, which my Pope has wished to promulgate

Some TradCaths also impugn JP2,, while Catholics have effectively put their (vs. that of Scripture) Mary above what God says of her, and many have effectively put her ahead of Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:21 states, “Therefore let no man glory in men. “ and 1 Corinthians 4:6 states that ye might learn in us not to think *of men* above that which is written.” Although this is in the context of sectarianism due to Corinthians elevating particular leaders above that which is written in Scripture, the principle applies to elevating Mary above that which is written.

Many Catholic Marian attributions even much parallel even that of Christ:

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)

The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Yet, as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God

And indeed 1 Timothy 2:5 states that “For *there is* one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,” and by Him believers have “boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus. (Hebrews 10:19) Otherwise we would die if we tried. (cf. Leviticus 16:2)

It should be kept in mind that my objection is not to Mary being honored as the holy chosen vessel to bring forth Christ, but to the excess ascriptions, appelations, exaltation, and adoration (and the manner of exegesis behind it), ascribed to the Catholic Mary, whether officially or by Catholics (with implicit sanction of authority). And which presumes that bowing down to a statute and attributing to the person it represent attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them, and imploring such for heavenly aid, would be understood and vindicated as merely being "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (which Rome states is the manner of adoration reserved for God).

As making that distinction itself is presumptuous, the Scriptures do not sanction religiously bowing down to any statue in supplication, nor supplies even one single prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (crying "Abba, Father," Gal. 4:6; not "Mama, Mother"), nor in instructions on who to pray to ("our Father who art in Heaven," not "our Mother").

And there is simply not even one example of the presumably (by Catholics) common basic practice of believers praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) (http://peacebyjesus.net/ptds.html) among the over 200 prayers by believers in Scripture (http://peacebyjesus.net/BIBLE-PRAYERS.html), or instructions on who to address.

And as said, one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.

Which manner of "adulation" could constitute worship in Scripture (Words for worship in the NT (http://peacebyjesus.net/Words_used_for_worship.html)), yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

The only prayers or offerings in Scripture to anyone else in Heaven (http://peacebyjesus.net/ptds.html) is by pagans, including to the only Queen of Heaven see therein, by souls who were as adamant as many Catholics in defending their blasphemous practice:

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17 (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3739006/bible/jeremiah/44:16-17/))

91 posted on 9/9/2020, 7:56:59 PM by daniel1212 (Trust the risen Lord Jesus to save you as a damned and destitute sinner + be baptized + follow Him)
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To: ifinnegan; CondoleezzaProtege; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; ...
Why cut it off? Post it all.

Well, what RC would want this statement included?

The Protestant suspicion that to honour Mary is not to honour her as a creaturely object of God’s benevolence, but as a quasi-transcendent subject somehow alongside God, is certainly not unfounded, having a basis not merely in bastardised Catholic practice but also in Catholic dogmatics.

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing supernatural attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

Which manner of "adulation" could constitute worship in Scripture , yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.


2 posted on 04/18/2023 12:06:24 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him who saves, be baptized + follow Him!)
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To: daniel1212

Jesus lived the Ten Commandments, including the Forth Commandment to honor thy father and mother.
Jesus is happy when we do the same.


3 posted on 04/19/2023 8:39:41 AM PDT by JosephJames (The Truth Shall Set You Free (Jn 8:32)!)
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