NATO Allies Escalate Military Support for Ukraine Despite U.S. Claims of Arms Supply Halt

Citizen Watch Report ^

[Robert DeLong]

Unfortunately, you cannot speak for your “we” group that have never been quiet nor stopped their abusive remarks.

Because you cheerleaders are clueless as to what you have started and that you are actually supporting evil, because you are actually an ignorant bunch who supported taking on evil when evil is in control of our nation.

You do not pay attention to what is taking place in our own nation and why it is being done.

[BroJoeK]

Robert DeLong: "Of course you would say that as you provided probably more than 10 times as many words sans any facts."

Every word I post is supported by data sources I can provide if you ask for them -- indeed, for major new data I provide sources regardless.
In my post #52 above, for examples, there are specific data for:

1. Alexander Dugin's "Foundations of Geopolitics"

2. Neil Ferguson's Cold War II

3. Global map of Western-style democracies versus Eastern authoritarian dictatorships.

4. The fact that 1960s era anti-establishmenbt flower-children peacenik Democrats have now become neo-isolationists "conservatives" -- while accusing actual historical conservatives of being the dreaded "neo-cons" -- is obvious from the old photo.

Robert DeLong: "Problem is, when evil exists on both sides, only evil will win in the end anyway.
If you think Zelenskyy or Biden represent good, then you clearly are not paying attention at all to reality. "

Reality is, it doesn't matter about minor offenses and misdemeanors committed by our guys when compared to the monstrous, murderous evil perpetrated by Vlad the Invader on Ukraine and other countries in Russia's "near abroad" alleged "sphere of influence".

We're talking about potential J-walking on Ukraine's side versus mass murder by Vlad the Invader.
So there is no "moral equivalence" -- none, zero, nada equivalence.

And how anybody actually sane might allege there is equivalence, is beyond any reasoned comprehension.

Robert DeLong: "In fact, you think Trump is evil because he has had more than one wife, but so has Biden who drove his first wife to driver herself & her children into an accident purposely because she was trying to kill herself & her children to remove them from evil's way , in the form of one Joseph Robinette Biden."

Now you are just babbling irrelevant ridiculous nonsense having nothing to do with Ukraine -- zero, zip, nada with Ukraine.
Starting here: I'm a big Tump fan and trust him to correct the basics of what's wrong today.

Robert DeLong: "Oh my, you really have exposed yourself as the useful idiot that I claim you are.
Look around you fool & see the evil that emanates from everything Biden does.
You are a hopeless fool, and thus I am completely wasting my time even trying to discuss things with you.
You need to be committed, and yesterday wasn't soon enough."

And there it is again -- 4 sentences with nearly 60 words and all of it fact-free babbling nonsense.
You have not presented even one word of actual information value or of asset worth in your anti-Ukraine argument, comrade.

Robert DeLong: "Apparently you seem to believe that Russia started both wars.
In WWI Russia was not a communist nation.
That didn't come about until 1917 when they had a civil War and the communists defeated the Russian Tsar."

No, I said nothing about Tsarist Russia's or the Old Soviet Empire's roles in the First & Second World Wars.
But since you mention it, they were at least partially complicit in starting both wars, and all the lessons from both World Wars should be strongly remembered today, as should those from the 45-year-long Cold War.

Robert DeLong: "In case you don't really know, it was Germany that stated both of the World Wars.
Moving on with your nonsense."

I totally agree that Germany is almost solely responsible for starting both World Wars in Europe, their own repeated & loud denials regarding WWI notwithstanding.
To the small degree that other countries were partially complicit, Tsarist Russia's and the Old Soviet's Empires were top of that list.

Robert DeLong: "We also know that the USSR crumpled under its own economic wight, just as we will crump our own economic weight that has been brought upon us by both political parties.
This is because the people did not heed the words of President Dwight D. Eisenhower as he was leaving office.
Do you remember what those words were JoeBro?"

So you obviously have no real clue who Eisenhower was, or what he was all about.
Eisenhower was a moderately conservative Republican who believed in limited Federal government and a very strong national defense -- Peace Through Strength.

Eisenhower had been the commander of Allied armies in World War II, and he knew exactly what it would take to defeat Stalin's Old Soviet Empire.
So Eisenhower kept the US military strong enough to defeat the Old Soviets, plus the Chi-Coms and a "minor" war elsewhere -- Peace Through Strength -- precisely so he wouldn't ever have to fight them directly.
And it worked.

As for Eisenhower's "military industrial complex", we need first to remember that when Eisenhower commanded Allied forces in Europe, the US was spending around 45% of our GDP on the war, and that was less than allies like the Brits.
When Eisenhower was elected President in 1952, the USA was still spending around 15% of our GDP on national defense, especially the Korean War.
When Eisenhower left office in 1961, he had reduced US defense spending to about 10% of GDP.

So, where are we today, 62+ years later?
Today the US spends circa 3% of our GDP on national defense, a number that Eisenhower himself would have considered insanely dangerous in a world gone mad with dictators like Russia's Vlad the Invader threatening Europe, the CCP's Xi-snake threatening the western Pacific, NoKo's Little Kim threatening Korea and Japan and Iran's Moolah Mullahs threatening the Middle East, among others.

Robert DeLong: "We are not neo-isolations as idiots like yourself always want to claim, we are citizens who are responsible citizens that know we cannot be the world's protector.
We cannot solve all of the world's problems, because we can't even solve our problems.
Often times the solution devised to solve the problem only makes the problem worse, not better."

All of that is 100% pure nonsense beginning here:

1. Since Eisenhower's election in 1952, the US has already reduced our military role in the world by 80% -- from circa 15% of GDP in 1952 to ~3% today.

2. Second, the USA has never, ever "policed" or "protected" the world by ourselves.
   Everything we've ever done is in alliance with many other countries, and that will never change.
   What may well change over time are the relative contributions of each country to our alliances, as Ukraine itself clearly demonstrates.

3. Third, regardless of how loudly you mock Edmund Burke, the truth of his aphorism remains rock solid:
   "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing"

   If we and our allies do not help protect or police the world, then the world absolutely will fall victim to aggressive murderous dictators like Vlad the Invader, the Xi-snake, Little Kim and the Moolah Mullahs.
   That is an iron-clad guarantee of immutable human nature which you can never escape by sticking your collective heads in the sand.

4. Finally, our abilities, or inabilities, to solve our own domestic issues have nothing to do with -- zero, zip, nada to do with -- the eternal need for strong alliances to protect Peace Through Strength

Robert DeLong: "We have also found that these endless wars, wars that are not addressed to Congress asking for a declaration of war, are being used to enrich the powerful within our government, at the expense of the citizen taxpayers."

That's total 100% complete rubbish.
The truth is Congress authorized every military operation, some specifically, others more generally, and voted funds to support them, including Ukraine.
As for who is getting rich and who is paying the bills, today's military is nothing remotely resembling that of our past, when:

1. ~45% of GDP went for the US military in 1944, WWII.
2. ~15 of GDP for military in 1952 Korean War.
3. ~10% of GDP max military in the 1960s Vietnam War
4. ~7% of GDP max military during Pres. Reagan's 1980s Cold War buildup.
5. ~5% of GDP max military during 2000s Bush II War on Terror.
6. ~3% of GDP on US military today.

So the whole concept of an "out of control" US military industrial complex is utter ridiculous nonsense.

Robert DeLong: "Idiots like you never see the truth, and believe that all of our politicians have our best interest at heart.
You do so, because you lack critical thinking skills, which is why you are easily swayed into acquiescing to their calls for military intervention."

And yet again, having presented no facts of value to this discussion, you fall back on babbling nonsense and ridiculous accusations.

Seriously, is that all you've got?

Robert DeLong: "All of this has placed this country in its most dangerous precarious position ever as a nation.
It has contributed to the disastrous debt accumulation, which in turn has placed our children & unborn children into massive debt before they even reach adulthood."

All of that is 100% complete lies and nonsense because not one penny of national defense spending has ever added to our national debt in the years since the Second World War.
Every penny of national debt has been added by non-essential, if not unconstitutional, non-defense spending.

And the reasons are obvious -- national defense is the Federal government's first and most serious constitutional duty.
Every other function of Washington DC is secondary, peripheral and non-essential after national defense.
Every dollar of Federal revenues must go first to adequate national defense, then if there's anything left over, it can be used for nice things like infrastructure spending.

So you just cannot legitimately blame national defense for a single domestic problem.

Robert DeLong: "You are nothing but a useful idiot who thinks we are idiots.
When fighting becomes the only option left, we are there for the fight.
Until then we need to assay the situation more deliberately to see if military action is the sound & only course available..
Idiots like you just follow the lead of their leaders whom you automatically believe they have the best intentions for all citizens of this nation."

I see where you throw the word "idiot" around as if you think you own the copyright on it.
Of course, you don't, and I'm beginning to question, is your over-use of the word "idiot", might that even be a psychological projection of your own mental chaos?
Russian propagandists (from the old Ministry of Agitation and Propaganda) are notorious for such projections, as are, increasingly, our own radical Democrats.

As for where & when, exactly, military actions may or may not be needed, that is the first and essential function of our national government, it's what we elect a president and Congress to consider, decide and authorize.
Here's what you can be certain of, from now until the end of time -- if good people around the world don't defend what's right, then evil people will defeat us with what's wrong.

Robert DeLong: "People like you are brainless Palov dogs, not thinking human beings, and we are no longer going to be silent with regards to your feelings anymore.
That has only succeeded in creating more like you. Instead we are going to point out that you are part of the problem, and that you need to start thinking for yourself.
Though I am convinced that you are so far gone, that their is no return ticket available for useful idiots like yourself."

And so you end here by piling the nonsense on thicker and deeper until there's nothing visible as fact sticking out above your layers of verbal manure.

So, what can I say? How about this:

If you ever do find a relevant fact or reasonable argument to make, then by all means come back and present it some day.
Until then, maybe just give it a little more thought, OK?

[bimboeruption]

This thread is brought to you by the Ministry of Propaganda of Ukraine.

[JonPreston]

The established rules of the international order

Watta clown Show :)

Macron: “Allowing Russia to win means exposing yourself to the risk that the established rules of the international order will no longer be respected.”

Maria Zakharova: “If Macron has a copy of the “rules” mentioned, please share.

As for victory, it does not depend on the… pic.twitter.com/ryoirBHOWR— Zlatti71 (@djuric_zlatko) January 17, 2024

[Robert DeLong]

Oh I have provided the facts numerous times, you just refuse to accept the facts, because they do not fit your Pavlovian conditioning.

Joe Biden is evil, Russia is evil, Ukraine is evil. The citizens of Ukraine & Russia are the victims. So, which evil are you supporting here BroJoe?

Russia & Ukraine were about to make a peace agreement, which seemed to be what Putin wanted all along as he tried to get the International Community involved is securing a peaceful end to the hostilities that had broken out in eastern Ukraine, along with the mistreatment of the Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens of eastern Ukraine who had initially sought autonomy , yet desired to remain as Ukrainian land. Yeah there were a minority of those who wanted to breakaway, but the vast majority did not want to breakaway.

But they were denied autonomy, and they continued to treat the Russian speaking Ukrainians as non citizens who had no rights in their own country, so eventually they were forced to want to breakaway.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

Just ignore bimboeruption comment: “This thread is brought to you by the Ministry of Propaganda of Ukraine.”
https://freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/4209738/posts?page=63#63

This is just bimboeruption’s mantra. She thinks it is cleaver! LOL

[imardmd1]

Thanks, Rev!

[imardmd1]

Let me ask your Post #22 screed to answer a couple of questions:

(1) Is Zelensky a “Christian”?

(2) What is Zelensky’s philosophy of ongoing government for the Ukraine?

(a belated response, was mistakjenly sent to the wrong thread)

[13foxtrot]

You are talking to a bot or a wall.

As you know, NATO deliberately goaded Russia into this war thinking that it would result in the quick and cheap downfall of Russia or at least Putin.

Putin warned NATO in 2008 that this war would happen if they continued their policy of expansion. NATO ignored these warnings up to and including orchestrating the 2014 coup.

And then the war started.

NATO will lose. Ukraine will lose. The West will pretend it didn’t happen just like Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, our many South American adventures, and even Vietnam.

The guy you are talking to is a neo-con promoting liberal foreign policy. Liberal foreign policy has always led to war because it doesn’t work. In contrast, realist FP recognizes that states will act in their own interest no matter what.

Liberal foreign policy often/always results in state actions that are counter to the interest of its promoters — often using faux good versus evil memes. Where of course the West is always the good. Thus, inevitably these liberal FP adventures flounder and the West pulls back after reality sets in. If these adventures were in the West’s interest, they would be prosecuted with prejudice to the bitter end, like WW2.

[JonPreston]

I agree with your post completely. I admit to laughing to myself as I have my morning coffee. I hope these Walls of Words he puts up is time consuming, but since I never read them, it could all be AI generated.

[13foxtrot]

I skimmed over a couple of those beowulfian posts — or more accurately Gish gallup spews.

It is impossible that someone with such “detailed” knowledge of the situation does not understand that this is a war of convenience for NATO and an existential threat to Russia. Hence, there is no chance Russian will quit before NATO does.

So I wonder what their motivation is.

[JonPreston]

there is no chance Russian will quit before NATO does

Agree, the West/NATO has destroyed any trust that existed prior to 2/24/22. This has become a death struggle and once NATO runs out of Ukrainian bodies to push forward, it's over. When that day comes, Russia will have done more for world peace that anything NATO has done since 1991.

[BroJoeK]

Robert DeLong: "Oh I have provided the facts numerous times, you just refuse to accept the facts, because they do not fit your Pavlovian conditioning."

Then you should have no objection to, and no trouble in, naming even one fact relevant to our discussion, along with the source that you thinks verifies your alleged "fact".

Let's just start with one single fact, fully sourced and undisputed, on a matter relevant to our discussion.
Let's see where that leads us.

Robert DeLong: "Joe Biden is evil, Russia is evil, Ukraine is evil.
The citizens of Ukraine & Russia are the victims.
So, which evil are you supporting here BroJoe?"

In the movie "Master And Commander",
Capt. Jack Aubry famously joked:

Well, obviously, we all are sinners:

Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God..."

First John 1:8: “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.”

So all have sinned, however there are orders of magnitude differences in the evils represented by Vlad the Invader's "special military operation" in Ukraine compared to the actions of those defending Ukraine against Vlad's assaults.

As, in the movie "Master And Commander", Capt. Jack Aubry famously joked with Dr. Stepen Maturin: "In the Service, one must always choose the lesser of two weevils"

Robert DeLong: "Russia & Ukraine were about to make a peace agreement, which seemed to be what Putin wanted all along as he tried to get the International Community involved is securing a peaceful end to the hostilities that had broken out in eastern Ukraine, along with the mistreatment of the Russian speaking Ukrainian citizens of eastern Ukraine who had initially sought autonomy , yet desired to remain as Ukrainian land.
Yeah there were a minority of those who wanted to breakaway, but the vast majority did not want to breakaway.
But they were denied autonomy, and they continued to treat the Russian speaking Ukrainians as non citizens who had no rights in their own country, so eventually they were forced to want to breakaway."

So, all of that is 100% total lies, pure Russian nonsense, directly from the information sewer pipes of the Russian Ministry for Agitation and Propaganda.
Your words are only a fantasy concocted by the Kremlin to justify what actual historical facts never could.

So, the fact that you buy into, believe and support, such nonsense speaks to your own mental problems, not to any weakness in the moral case for supporting Ukraine against Vlad's aggressions.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston quoting: "Maria Zakharova: “If Macron has a copy of the “rules” mentioned, please share."

So, Maria Zakharova is a Kremlin propagandist who travels in some pretty high-level circles.
Here she is with (from left) Lavrov, Jen Saki and John Kerry:

So these are certainly people we can trust to tell us the truth of everything, right?
</sarcasm >

[BroJoeK]

Robert DeLong to UMCRevMom@aol.comn: "Because you cheerleaders are clueless as to what you have started and that you are actually supporting evil, because you are actually an ignorant bunch who supported taking on evil when evil is in control of our nation.
You do not pay attention to what is taking place in our own nation and why it is being done."

And here again we see 100% pure babbling nonsense -- just fact-free eruptions of bile and ignorance unsupported by anything resembling actual data and logic.

But, in Russian propaganda circles, DeLong's words are doubtless considered to be effective and good work, we have to presume.

[BroJoeK]

imardmd1: "Let me ask your Post #22 screed..."

Your word "screed" defined as anything imardmd1 disagrees with.

imardmd1: "to answer a couple of questions:
(1) Is Zelensky a “Christian”?"

Zelenskyy's ancestors were Jewish, so tell us, are you an antisemitic Nazi?
Or are you a pro-Russian who wants to root out all of Ukraine's Jewish Nazis?

imardmd1: "(2) What is Zelensky’s philosophy of ongoing government for the Ukraine?"

In May of 2019 Volodymyr Zelenskyy took Ukraine's Oat of Office as President:

"I, (name and surname), elected by the will of the people as the President of Ukraine, assuming this high office, do solemnly swear allegiance to Ukraine.
I pledge with all my undertakings to protect the sovereignty and independence of Ukraine, to provide for the good of the Motherland and the welfare of the Ukrainian people, to protect the rights and freedoms of citizens, to abide by the Constitution of Ukraine and the laws of Ukraine, to exercise my duties in the interests of all compatriots, and to enhance the prestige of Ukraine in the world.[33]"

I've seen nothing to suggest that Zelenskyy has ever violated even one word of that oath.

Ukraine since 1996 is a constitutionally defined republic with democratically elected officials which has held seven presidential elections and eight parliamentary elections, certified internationally.

By stark contrast, Russia is now a failed democracy and revanchist empire, which has been ruled over by a single dictator -- an Old Soviet KGB LtCol -- since the end of 1999.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston on NATO: "NOT a defensive alliance, Not one bit"

Everything you listed is defensive, though not all is in defense against Vlad the Invader's Russia.
Sadly, Vlad is not the world's only bad-actor and NATO has responded elsewhere when it's ideals were assaulted.

13foxtrot #69, responding to JonPreston: "You are talking to a bot or a wall.
As you know, NATO deliberately goaded Russia into this war thinking that it would result in the quick and cheap downfall of Russia or at least Putin."

Your words "bot" or "a wall" well describe our pro-Russian defenders of nonsense direct from the information sewer pipes of the Kremlin's Ministry for Agitation and Propaganda.

So any suggestion that Vlad the Invader was "goaded" is sheer insanity, unless, by the word "goaded" you imply that Vlad himself is insane, in which case firm opposition is the only rational choice for Ukraine and the West.

However, it seems to me Vlad is far from insane -- because he was not "goaded", but rather provoked into aggression against Ukraine by perceived American and Western weakness in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
A strong American leader, like Pres. Trump, would have held Vlad the Invader in check and prevented his 2022 Ukraine invasion.
But Vlad saw weakness in Biden and logically decided now was finally his time to act.
Vlad wasn't "goaded" by NATO, he was provoked by perceived American and western weakness

13foxtrot #69: "Putin warned NATO in 2008 that this war would happen if they continued their policy of expansion.
NATO ignored these warnings up to and including orchestrating the 2014 coup."

It sounds like, here you just claimed that Vlad the Invader is himself insane, for thinking he can control who will or won't join NATO.
He can't, not now, not ever.

And your words, "orchestrating the 2014 coup," clearly identify you as a mind-numbed Russian propaganda repeater bot.

13foxtrot #69: "NATO will lose.
Ukraine will lose.
The West will pretend it didn’t happen just like Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, our many South American adventures, and even Vietnam."

These are the 1960s hippies who today tell is
it's truly "conservative" and "realist"
to abandon our friends in the world

We don't yet know the outcome in Ukraine, but one thing is 100% guaranteed -- whatever actually happens, Russian propaganda will lie about it, just as they do about everything else.
And Russian propaganda repeaters like JonPreston and 13foxtrot will swallow Russian lies hook, line and zinger, loyally repeating and amplifying whatever you're told.

So here's the truth about "Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, our many South American adventures, and even Vietnam,".
Our Democrats have a great talent for first screwing things up and then abandoning our friends in the world, all in the name of liberal peace, love and flower-children.
Now they want conservatives to act like they do.

13foxtrot #69"The guy you are talking to is a neo-con promoting liberal foreign policy.
Liberal foreign policy has always led to war because it doesn’t work.
In contrast, realist FP recognizes that states will act in their own interest no matter what."

And this is one of the Biggest of the Big Lies -- claims that our neo-isolationists are not really isolationists who want to run away from every foreign problem.
No, no, you guys are not pro-Putin retreaters who want to hand over the world to its most brutal and aggressive dictators -- Russia's Vlad the Invader, CCP's Xi-snake, NoKo's Little Kim and Iran's Moolah Mullah's, among others.

No, no, no, you guys are not cowards in the face of evil, you're all just "realists" who want to retreat today from Ukraine, and tomorrow from Taiwan and then from Israel and South Korea, all so we can... what... fight another day?
No, of course not, it's all so we can keep on retreating whenever our friends and allies are threatened or invaded.
That's not insane cowardice, you claim, and it's not isolationism, it's just "realism".

Riiiight.

BTW, many years ago I did have some FDC experience at Ft. Sill and still remember a bit about "drop 50 and fire for effect".
I wonder if they still use that these days?

[JonPreston]

Ukraine will cease to exist???

I need 500 words or MORE, please

Hello, my friends!

Crazy proposition from Medvedev: Ukrainians can't handle a State, therefore, to be incorporated into a "Large Common State." Russia?

--SSTJ--

Ukraine will cease to exist, will be incorporated into Russia, or face d... https://t.co/T5yyIyVRR9 via @YouTube— EmilCosman (@CosmanEmilSSTJ) January 18, 2024

[JonPreston]

Ukraine faces the fate of Afghanistan and Libya - Sergei Lavrov

“Because by relying on the owner, without understanding that the owner thinks only about himself, and not at all about you, you cannot count on the interests of your people being taken into account in any way” pic.twitter.com/3aUN9mrQCW— Dagny Taggart (@DagnyTaggart963) January 18, 2024

[PIF]

However, it seems to me Vlad is far from insane — because he was not “goaded”, but rather provoked into aggression against Ukraine by perceived American and Western weakness in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

—
To me having had real world and personal experience with Moscovia and Moscovian’s of the KGB type, its more like the guy who’s tied up with his hand behind his back, who manages to slip the knots while this captors are not looking, then waits, pretending he’s still tied up, biding his time for the right moment to strike his captors.

He does not need to be goaded or provoked, he’s just doing what his nature and predicament dictate. His actions are to be expected, tied up or not, he lies doggo, until at some point, he acts.