Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Two things to consider in voting (vanity)
self | 2/2/2004 | self

Posted on 02/02/2004 6:40:21 PM PST by Miles Vorkosigan

First: Bush has a solid record, unlike his father, who was pretty much a failure. The son has, however, made certain compromises that have angered many conservatives.

What people miss, however, is that the reason he's had to compromise is that the country is more liberal than it was during the Reagan years.

And the reason it's more liberal is precisely that many conservatives had a fit--under far more legitimate circumstances, considering Bush I's liberal record, than today's--and voted for Perot, causing Clinton to be elected.

Want to ensure that the next GOP President signs gun confiscation, slavery reparations, and elimination of the age of consent into law, in order to triangulate against his "moderate Democrat opponent," Dennis Kucinich? Then vote for the Constitution Party or the Libertarian Party this year.

2. Kerry winning won't eliminate Hillary Clinton from the picture, either. In fact, Kerry would probably be the worst of both worlds: a Carter-like one-term failure, who nevertheless would drag so much socialist legislation onto the national agenda that he'd make the country more left-wing. As a result, he might well be denied the nomination in 2008 in favor of Hillary.

If you want one term of Kerry and two terms of Hillary...vote Constitution or Libertarian.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 02/02/2004 6:40:21 PM PST by Miles Vorkosigan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
I can't buy enough popcorn to keep up with these threads. :-)
2 posted on 02/02/2004 6:42:23 PM PST by TomServo ("Why does the most evil man in the world live in a Stuckeys?")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
What people miss, however, is that the reason he's had to compromise is that the country is more liberal than it was during the Reagan years.

That's a nice excuse.

3 posted on 02/02/2004 6:43:51 PM PST by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
I've heard that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result. I don't want to be insane anymore.
4 posted on 02/02/2004 6:45:01 PM PST by Sloth (It doesn't take 60 seats to control the Senate; it only takes 102 testicles.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sloth
Then don't vote for third party candidates and expect anything other than a leftward turn for the country.
5 posted on 02/02/2004 6:46:00 PM PST by Miles Vorkosigan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
The son has, however, made certain compromises that have angered many conservatives.

What are you talking about? What compromises has Bush made that would make conservatives angry? Do you agree or disagree with these compromises? Where do you stand? Should the conservatives simply be ignored and branded extremists? Are the conservatives misguided?

6 posted on 02/02/2004 6:51:00 PM PST by God is good (Till we meet in the golden city of the New Jerusalem, peace to my brothers and sisters.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
This is a pretty good analysis!
7 posted on 02/02/2004 6:51:28 PM PST by NYCVirago
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
And the reason it's more liberal is precisely that many conservatives had a fit...

Those are your Clinton Conservatives. Many of them are here.

If you want one term of Kerry and two terms of Hillary...vote Constitution or Libertarian.

Those are your emerging Kerry Conservatives. Many of them are here.

8 posted on 02/02/2004 6:51:59 PM PST by Consort
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
I will vote for GWB, but I will continue to fight the good conservative fight!!! Cut the spending in Congress! Enforce the immigration laws on the books, secure the borders and deport the illegals. Until the borders are secured and the illegals deported there is no "war on terrorism", there is no "war on drugs" and there definitedly is no "homeland security!"
9 posted on 02/02/2004 6:54:04 PM PST by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar. Div. U.S.M.C. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
Then don't vote for third party candidates and expect anything other than a leftward turn for the country.

And why is it any less true to say it this way?

"Then don't vote for GOP candidates and expect anything other than a leftward turn for the country."

If we give Republicans our vote, no matter what leftist positions they take, then they have no incentive whatsoever to change their positions. They can have their cake and eat it too - getting votes from mushy moderates and liberals by expanding government, and keeping the conservatives on the planation with vague threats about how much worse it will be under Democrats.

That's not a strategy. At best, it's short term tactics. Well, I'm not in this for the short term. I'm in it to help keep the monster of socialist government off of my grandchildren. If I thought Republicans would help in that effort, I'd be happy to give support. But it's clear, and been clear for years, that they won't, at least not with their current leadership.

10 posted on 02/02/2004 6:55:03 PM PST by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Consort
*not sure what category she'd rate in but...* There is NO way in hell I'm voting Democrat. I don't agree with some of GWB's ideas but it's a helluva lot better than imagining a President Kerry or God forbid, a President Hillary *shudder twitch nightmare*
11 posted on 02/02/2004 6:55:59 PM PST by Severa (Wife of Freeper Hostel, USN STS3(SS) currently on 6 month deployment)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
" If we give Republicans our vote, no matter what leftist positions they take, then they have no incentive whatsoever to change their positions. They can have their cake and eat it too - getting votes from mushy moderates and liberals by expanding government, and keeping the conservatives on the planation with vague threats about how much worse it will be under Democrats."

That's the point that I have repeatedly tried to make. If you promise your vote to a politician *no matter what*, then what do you expect from him? Would you let your spouse cheat on you once a week because you don't want to be single? Certainly not! Well, actually some of these people probably would.

My God, at least you'd think that they would be smart enough to threaten to withhold the vote if they aren't pleased with the current coarse and don't want it to get any worse. If you ain't complaining, the pols keep doing what they've been doing. You gotta let them know that you aren't happy. And never let them know that you're scared of the alternative. Show your anger, but never show the fear. The fear only plays into their hands.

That is, if they really don't like the leftward shift. Sometimes I wonder.

12 posted on 02/02/2004 7:14:30 PM PST by Badray (Make sure that the socialist in the White House has to fight a conservative Congress.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: God is good
recenr illigal immigrants gain legal status wthout any effort. he just gave a full pardon to several thousand criminals. this makes the liberals happy, but makes us have to deal with more mouths to feed over simply sending them back (had he cracked down on them, we would have been able to afford a few lost jobs. now they may even take higher jobs than before, and they may take even lower wages. this is something that makes this coniservative angry)
13 posted on 02/03/2004 2:30:50 PM PST by MacDorcha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
this is true, but what choie is that? you either
A) get semi-moderates voted under republican votes, and they retain their positions or we can simply give a better candidate later (anyone can run you know)
or
B) we can split our votes and make the left stronger by deviding ourselves.

it makes more sense to vote on republicans until a little right of center becomes center. then vote libertarian vs republican. democrats would become a new extreme, and thus, less fo a threat.
14 posted on 02/03/2004 2:34:43 PM PST by MacDorcha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Badray
according to that wisdom, we MUST give the dems a few presidents once in a while, or our side would slip to their side. does that make sense in those words? to keep power, you must give in?
15 posted on 02/03/2004 2:37:09 PM PST by MacDorcha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: MacDorcha
to keep power, you must give in?

It would be much better stated as "to influence power, you must give feedback". And the only forms of feedback you have are your vote, and your election efforts (campaign contributions, time, etc.).

As long as a candidate or party is "going in the right direction", your feedback should encourage them. When they start going in the wrong direction, it must discourage them (through the withdrawal of your vote and support).

Otherwise, your vote and campaign support means nothing. It gives no feedback - they get it whether they deserve it or not. They can then adapt their behavior to those who will withhold their votes, because they are not going to lose you.

I and lots of others on this board maintain that this is exactly what's been happening. So many conservatives have decided that it's "my GOP, right or wrong" that the candidates know they can count on the votes and support of conservatives, no matter what they do. They can increase government handouts, grow the bureaucracy, put us deeper in debt, and so what? Their refrain about the conservatives is "where are they going to go?" So the conservative viewpoint can be safely ignored.

The mainstream Republicans will keep going in that direction (appeasing moderates) until some sort of feedback pulls them back. After all, not one in a hundred Republican politicians has any deep philosophical conviction about conservative principles. (If they had any when they got elected, it probably got beaten out of them by the political establishment.) They just go where the votes are.

Consider them a "vote optimizing machine". They do whatever strategy maximizes votes, regardless of whether that strategy is conservative, or even Constitutional. If they can count on certain votes no matter what, then they will inevitably ignore those votes, and seek out more votes by appeasing groups whose behavior they can influence with government giveaways or whatever. It's not that they don't like you - they are simply indifferent to where the votes come from. Since you are giving yours for free, they'll take 'em - and then go looking for more somewhere else. Only if you make them pay a price for your votes will you influence their behavior. And that means you must be prepared to withhold your vote if their behavior is not acceptable. And that means, unfortunately, that you must be prepared to lose in the short term to maintain your long term influence.

16 posted on 02/03/2004 4:34:40 PM PST by Joe Bonforte
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: MacDorcha
according to that wisdom, we MUST give the dems a few presidents once in a while, or our side would slip to their side. does that make sense in those words? to keep power, you must give in?

Yes. Preferably doing things in rotation so that the balance of power is never really thrown to the other side, some RINOs should be thrown to the dogs occasionally.

Consider three incumbency states: Good Republican in office; bad RINO in office; Dem in office. If a good Republican is in office, hopefully things will stay that way. And if a Dem is in office, a good Republican might get in next term. But if a bad RINO is in office, the next election probably won't improve things, since Republicans seldom seem to replace retiring RINOs with good Republicans. While there may be timing reasons why giving a RINO a term may be a reasonable idea, one should recognize that doing so will delay the possibility of getting a good Republican.

17 posted on 02/03/2004 5:19:12 PM PST by supercat (Why is it that the more "gun safety" laws are passed, the less safe my guns seem?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Miles Vorkosigan
No more excuses.
18 posted on 02/04/2004 5:27:08 AM PST by Bikers4Bush (Flood waters rising, heading for more conservative ground. Write in Tancredo in 04'!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Joe Bonforte
the problem with all of that though, is when one group comes into power, others tend to mimic that group hoping for the same success. the only lesson most politicans would learn is that "if they are getting votes, and i want votes, i must appeal to both sides to get them." and either no matter how it happens, the voter becomes central more and more. its the natural progression. eventually, someone who gets into power will rock the boat enough after getting elected that everybody will wake up and find themselves in actual party lines again.

an example. my folks (who are in the military) voted republican just because it was good for the military for so long.but when clinton came to office, my mom and dad realized just HOW conservative they really are. they lost the "whatever gets me a paycheck" approach, and now follow along "i do NOT want another democrat in office if that is the jewl of the democratic crown" as time goes on, they may forget just how bitter clinton was, and go back to voting republican simply because again.

the point is, this happens to almost everybody. the votes come as long as nothing goes wrong. when one of our guys messes up, we get a clinton!
19 posted on 02/04/2004 7:51:10 AM PST by MacDorcha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: supercat
id rather have a bad RINO followed by a middle of the road dem followed by a good republican; than a good republican followed by a "good for the dems" dem. you let a dem win after a good republican, it only makes them have office sooner
20 posted on 02/04/2004 7:54:00 AM PST by MacDorcha
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson