Posted on 08/13/2004 9:36:00 AM PDT by IdaBriggs
Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I am trying to "reach out" to your side of the world in an effort to help each side understand the other. I apologize in advance if I offend or upset any of you, because that is NOT my intention. I hope by putting my "real name" on this post, you will view what I am about to say in the sincere way I mean it.
I am somewhat frightened of you.
Again, I apologize if I am offending, but I thought you should know about it. I also know I am not alone in my feelings about you because I have talked with other people who feel the same way. We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
I know most of you are good people. You are kind and generous with your friends, family and neighbors. You help strangers change tires, work as teachers, risk your lives in the service of others -- all things everyone admires, respects and honors. Those of us on "the other side" do the same thing.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path. That is very hurtful, and it makes us feel like you don't really see us as fellow human beings with different understandings of God. I am a gardener by hobby, and not always a very good one. My husband likes to tease me about "killing plants" instead of growing them because sometimes I over water or put too much fertilizer on them, yet every year I keep trying, and gradually, my garden is starting to become beautiful. I love roses in particular, and am reminded every day how wonderful God is because He made so many different kinds – I have three different red roses alone, and each one is perfect! I have seven different colors of Petunias, and use them to explain how God loves people of all colors to my neighbor's children. I guess that is why I believe you, who scare me so, really do have love in your hearts for all of us, even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
The worst times are when the topics of Abortion and Gay Sex come up. No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations. The only way I can reconcile this with a rational viewpoint is if I think you believe you are trying to SAVE those who don't believe the way you do from Hell. This seems to be a very loving action on your part, but feels rude and controlling in a not-positive way to the rest of us. Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.
If you are truly horrified by the thought of these things, I don’t know what to say to make it easier for you to understand, but I will still try. I guess it would be like making everyone not wear jewelry or make up because some churches believe adornment is demonstrating vanity; it may end up being something we are all judged by, but it may also simply be a misreading or misinterpretation of the text. I am not saying your adherence to the tenets of your faith is wrong; I am saying other people have a right to love God in their own ways, and our civil laws should not be about defining “sin” but crime.
I say again, I am not meaning to offend. I have a very strong faith in God, and trust him to do the right thing. I don't like hearing people say that God is judging all of America based on who is President; both men have qualities worthy of admiration at some level, and both are interviewing for the job of enforcing our constitution. It demands we keep church and state as separate institutions so that we don't have wars in this country over religion (like they do in Ireland with Catholics and Protestants or in Iraq with Sunni's and Shiites). It demands I respect your right NOT to have an abortion if you don't want one, and NOT to indulge in gay sex if you don't want to, and to follow the teachings of your faith in the way you best understand them. It demands we all work "for the common defense, promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" and on behalf of that, I am reaching out to you to find out how we can frame the debates on these things without heaping scorn and shame upon each other. No matter what the results of the November 2, 2004, election, I personally want all Americans to be proud of our country, and the way we run it.
I know I am already.
In Humble Sincerity, Ida M. Briggs
Yes, it is. Stop lying.
Yes, it is. Stop lying.
i would agree that gays have it much better off in 2004 than slaves ever did. for millions and millions of people, a marriage license is just a piece of paper that says a couple wont have sex with other people. plenty of people get married with no plans of having children, and plenty get married that can't have children. i've never heard it argued that they shouldn't be married because they can't or don't want to reproduce.
Just for grins, I'll respond fully.
Your first impression is correct. That's precisely what partial birth abortion is. Your second definition, after you 'learned the truth', is propaganda and misinformation, and you know it.
Do you think we just fell off the turnip truck around here? You are trying to pass off a lie to some of the most informed people in America. Wake up.
stop LYING? wake up and look it up on your own. and ask yourself, do you really think illegal late abortions are just fine and dandy by the government as long as you use a certain procedure?
the issue of abortion is plenty complicated already without all the false information floating around out there.
You can legally kill a baby as long as some part of the body is still in the canal. It's the law, and you know it.
you're right, IF there are complications that would kill or cause serious permanent injury to the mother. otherwise, you're wrong.
There are no such legal restrictions.
It goes to the legal definition of 'birth'. If any part of the baby remains in the canal, it's not a legal live birth. Abortion procedures must be performed prior to birth, by definition.
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. That's the law. If you don't want to believe it, that's not my problem.
Take one step back.
Here's the deal, and you know it... I would like to give back just as your're giving. But since I am, obviously, the newbie here, I would lose...You would win. I know that, and more importantly, you know that. Thus, your attitude.
No. My Viking kitty is very alert. That's the reason for my attitude.
Weak. Very weak, man...
You're going about this the wrong way.
i don't know what country you're from, but it's most certainly NOT the law in the united states.
The person who posted on DU attempted to make the point that we -- those of us who post on FR -- are the ones who would deny life, liberty the pursuit of happiness to Black people.
The person who posted that on DU is a person who uses the screenname noiretblu. When I have posted on DU, I, on more than one occasion, had incredibly frustrating dialogues with her.
Her notions include the notion that all --- ALL -- white people are racists, that no man should be entitled to have any opinion on the subject of abortion (a position more extreme than the notion that the decision to have an abortion should rest solely with the woman). She really feels that NO male senator or representative should ever be allowed to vote on any bill that deals with abortion.
If you want some idea of DU, understand this -- the regulars who posts on DU regard noiretblu as one of the intelligent and reasonable people who post over there.
THAT is how extreme they are.
They consider us to be little more than knuckle-draggin zombies who get our talking points from either Rush Limbaugh or Pat Robertson. They are so blinded by their extreme points of view that they are,m in my view, incapable of rational thought or reasonable dialogue with any one who does not share their extreme world view.
Wow. That noiretblu has a lot in common with the designers of the Apartheid system.
That's absolutely ghastly.
Oh, and for the record, Ida, I don't think government should be involved in marriage at all - neither for the gays nor straights.
It's an issue for consenting adults to decide for themselves.
Who's forcing women to have kids? If they don't want to have a baby there are certain things they can do to avoid it...
1.Use a condom.
2.Use birth control.
3.Abstain from having sex!
This seems to reek of Common sense...is that the reason pro choice people find it so hard to grasp it?
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