Skip to comments.RUSH: Live Thread - Schiavo vs Elian - Compare and Contrast
Posted on 03/28/2005 9:18:27 AM PST by fishtank
Rush: The 11th Circuit Court had said "No" to Johnny Reno, but she went ahead and took custody of Elian anyway...........................
I thought the 11th Circuit had approved Elian's deportation. Am I remebering wrong?
Yes, but the liberal judges turned their heads and did nothing about it. If a conservative violated a court order, the crap would hit the fan.
I'm surprised Rush brought it up because he sure was critical of the abduction of Elian (and rightly so IMHO).
Secretary of Defense Cohen, Impeached Bill Clinton, Albright, and long-accepted CODE-level thief
and document destroyer National Security Adviser Sandy Berger,
holding court in the Ronald Reagan Building on April 25, 1999
The Impeached Bill Clinton: "We were all making comments
we shouldn't have about how the meeting was getting very boring.
So finally we decided we had to make like the monkey. Cohen
started this 'hear no evil,' and then I was next so I spoke no evil,
then Madeleine saw no evil, so Sandy Berger said, 'I'm evil.'"
That is the difference between a court ruling that goes against conservatives and one that goes against liberals.
It also shows that Jeb and Dubya have the power to step in and save Terri,,,if they really wanted to.
The sad case of Terri Schiavo has raised passions not seen since five years ago. Then another bitterly divided family argued in Florida courts over someone who couldn't speak on his own behalf: Elian Gonzalez.
In both cases, those who were unhappy with the courts' decisions strained to assert the federal government's power to produce a different outcome. The difference is that in Mrs. Schiavo's case, Congress backed off after passing a bill that merely asked a federal court to hear the case from scratch, something that U.S. District Judge James Whittemore declined to do. By contrast, those who wanted the federal government to intervene in Elian Gonzalez's case went all the way, supporting a predawn armed federal raid on the morning before Easter to seize the 6-year-old boy despite a federal appeals court's refusal to order his surrender.
Both cases were marked with hypocrisy and political posturing galore. Both times some conservative Republicans talked about issuing subpoenas to compel the person at the center of the case to appear before Congress; they swiftly backed down when public opinion failed to support their stunt. Rep. Barney Frank, a Massachusetts Democrat, argued that by opposing Elian's return to his father in communist Cuba, conservatives were abandoning the principle that "the state should not supersede the parents' wishes." In the case of Terri Schiavo, many conservatives who normally support spousal rights decided that Michael Schiavo's decision to abandon his marital vows while at the same time refusing to divorce his wife rendered him unfit to override the wishes of his wife's parents to have her cared for.
But liberals have gotten off easy for some of the somersaulting arguments they have made on behalf of judicial independence and states' rights to justify their position that Terri Schiavo should not be saved. Many made the opposite arguments in the Elian Gonzalez case.
Elian was plucked from the ocean off the coast of Florida on Thanksgiving Day 1999. after his mother died in an ill-fated attempt to bring him to freedom. Before he became a political football and Fidel Castro demanded his return, the Immigration and Naturalization Service granted him immigration "parole," which gave him the right to live in the U.S. for one year until his status was determined. Because Elian was underage, his fate would therefore be decided by local family courts. On Dec. 1, the INS issued a statement saying, "Although the INS has no role in the family custody decision process, we have discussed the case with the State of Florida officials who have confirmed that the issue of legal custody must be decided by its state court."
Then the Clinton administration reversed course after protests from the Castro regime reached a fever pitch. On Dec. 9, the INS declared its previous position "a mistake" and said that state courts would not have jurisdiction in Elian's case. They claimed that because Elain was taken directly to a hospital he was therefore never formally paroled into the U.S.--even though he was then turned over to his Miami relatives rather than the INS. "Technically, he was not paroled in the usual sense," said a Justice Department spokesman. But she could come up with no previous case in which a Cuban refugee had had his parole revoked and then had the INS move to return him to Cuba.
But it quickly became clear that was the INS's intent. Over the Christmas holidays the agency dispatched agents to Cuba to interview Elian's father, Juan Miguel Gonzalez. After the interview, Mr. Gonzalez told reporters the agents and an accompanying U.S. diplomat had assured him Elian would be returned. The Clinton administration disputed those statements, although one of the government officials later privately acknowledged they had been made. Nonetheless, INS bureaucrats in Washington quickly determined that a man who had abandoned Elian and his mom for another woman was a "fit parent" who could "properly care for the child in Cuba." No public consideration was given to the fact that his father, a member of the Communist Party, might have been coerced.
If a state court had been allowed to hear the custody case, INS officials would not have been able to testify as to what Mr. Gonzalez told them to support his claim because it would have been hearsay. He would have had to come to the U.S. to testify on his own, subject to cross-examination. Even if the state court had granted him custody, it would have had to decide whether it was in the child's best interest to be returned to Cuba.
That's what Judge Rosa Rodriguez of Florida Family Court, complying with the original INS ruling, tried to do when she ruled in early January 2000 that her court had jurisdiction over the boy and gave Elian's great-uncle legal authority to represent him. Her order contravened an INS ruling that only Elian's father could speak for the boy and that he should be immediately returned to Cuba. Attorney General Janet Reno than promptly declared that Judge Rodriguez's ruling had "no force or effect." At the same time, INS officials assured reporters that under no circumstances did they intend to seize Elian by force.
The stalemate continued for another three months. On Thursday, April 20, the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals--the same court that rejected the pleas of Terri Schiavo's parents last week--turned down the Justice Department's request to order Elian removed from the home of his Miami relatives. Moreover, the court expressed serious doubts about the Justice Department's reading of both the law and its own regulations, adding that Elian had made a "substantial case on the merits" of his claim. It further established a record that Elain, "although a young child, has expressed a wish that he not be returned to Cuba."
The Reno Justice Department acted the next day to short-circuit a legal process that was clearly going against it. On Good Friday evening, after all courts had closed for the day, the department obtained a "search" warrant from a night-duty magistrate who was not familiar with the case, submitting a supporting affidavit that seriously distorted the facts. Armed with that dubious warrant, the INS's helmeted officers, assault rifles at the ready, burst into the home of Elian's relatives and snatched the screaming boy from a bedroom closet. Many local bystanders were tear-gassed even though they did nothing to block the raid. Elian was quickly returned to Cuba; because he was never able to meet with his lawyers a scheduled May 11 asylum hearing on his case in Atlanta became moot.
Of course, there are differences between the Gonzalez and Schiavo cases. But clearly many of the people who approved of dramatic federal intervention to return Elian to Cuba took a completely different tack when it came to the argument over saving Terri Schiavo. Rep. Frank makes a compelling argument that Congress took an extraordinary step when it met in special session to create a procedure whereby the federal courts could decide whether Ms. Schiavo's rights were being violated. He may have a point when he accuses Republicans of "trying to command judicial activism and dictate outcomes when they don't like" rulings. But where were Mr. Frank and other liberals when the Clinton administration decided to sidestep a federal appeals court and order an armed raid against Elian Gonzalez? While Mr. Frank allowed that the use of assault rifles in the Elian raid was "excessive" and "frightening," he also defended the Justice Department's view that "of course [agents] had to use force."
According to some reports, Gov. Jeb Bush considered seizing Mrs. Schiavo, à la Elian, and taking her to a hospital so she could be fed. But he did not do so. "I've consistently said that I can't go beyond what my powers are, and I'm not going to do it," the governor says. Janet Reno and the Clinton administration showed no such restraint when it came to Elian Gonzalez.
Sandy's passing gas in that pic?
Gov. Bush had the power.
But he was afraid to use it.
So libs violate the law - nothing happens.
When conservatives violate the law - the excrement hits the fan.
Either Bush should/could go in and rescue Terry, and damn the torpedoes.
Rush said "If you ask me...The Gonzalez case has the greater degree of thumbing their noses at the courts."
And it was wrong, and we still hate her for it.
We should hate either Bush just as much if they flaunted the law so brazenly.
It is a sad situation.
I cannot agree the Judge Greer's flatulence is the "law".
So what is the point? Is Rush really saying that since J. Reno violated the law, it is OK for us to do the same? I don't think that is a road I want to go down.
What law did Reno Violate?
According to this thread, she violated a court order. That is against the law.
So Americans should have followed the Dredd Scott decision to the T, even though that meant returning escaped slaves back to their owners rather than give them aid and comfort on their passage to freedom, therefore flaunting "the law" in a brazen manner?
President Bush had the power too, the power to send Federal marshals.
Neither would use it. Were they afraid (which would be typically Republican) or were they just not really interested?
I'm not hearing him say that... yet.
Rush points out that Terri Schiavo's medical condition has been misrepresented and the media perpetuates it so public opinion goes against Governor Bush going in. He also points out that the Clinton Justice Dept. did what they wanted and had the support of the media and public even though they went against the two courts.
Ah, so Bush and/or Jeb should emulate Slick and Reno's blatant abuse of power with Elian? I'd hope not.
"The judges ahve made their decision. Now let them enforce it."
To cubicle bound: Rush is now comparing Tom DeLay's dad's case to that of Terry Schindler.
All that may be true. It doesn't justify our following in the steps of the Clinton administration.
They did, apparently, at the local police level.
Judges are often wrong. Their mistakes must be resisted.
per Rush: "Nobody had to KILL Tom Delay's father in order for him to die."
Fund talks about what Reno did in this WSJ article:
Sorry, but it is.
If you don't like a law, get it changed, but don't whine about getting a strict judge that enforces the law as it is.
No. But that is a red herring anyway as the court will not be there at the time to make a ruling like that.
A good question Rush asks is: Are food and water ..medical assistance?
Exactly which law was Greer adhering to?
Just because Dred Scott was a court ruling, doesn't make it good, true, right or even "the law".
"And it was wrong, and we still hate her for it.
We should hate either Bush just as much if they flaunted the law so brazenly."
I TOTALLY disagree. The Florida constitution states in Article I, Section 2, that "[a]ll natural persons, female and male alike, are equal before the law, and have inalienable rights, among which are the right to enjoy and defend life ... ." According to the Constitution, "no person shall be deprived of any right [including the right to enjoy life] because of ... physical disability."
The governor has the supreme executive power and the constitutional duty, stated in Article 4, Section 1, to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed," and he took an oath of office stating the same. He is SWORN to uphold uphold the constitution, and IS OBLIGATED to safeguard our constitutional guarantee of the "inalienable right ... to enjoy and defend life," regardless of physical disability.
Jeb Bush MAY NOT disregard that obligation, even if a member of the judiciary has ordered otherwise. He is NOT bound by a court order that is AT ODDS WITH A CONSTITUTIONAL GUARANTEE!! What part of that are people NOT getting?????
Thomas Jefferson said, "[T]o consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy." Maybe some of us should look up what those words mean??
Abraham Lincoln had the backbone to disregard the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Dred Scott when he issued the Emancipation Proclamation. It wasnt EASY but it WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!
Jeb Bush has to choose between the clear mandate of Florida's constitution and a judiciary which, in this case, IS RUNNING AMOK and has acted in defiance of that state supreme law.
A rogue judge CANNOT tell a governor he can't obey the law. Floridas law ALLOWS the DCF to intervene. Even by asking whether or not a judge can or should be defied shows our ignorance of our own laws and we end up playing into the hands of judicial tyrants such as Greer. By the way, ARE YOU AWARE that one of Greers last rulings resulted in a woman being stabbed to death by her husband because he REFUSED to grant a protective order?
Rogue judges are NOT a law unto themselves even though they (and some uninformed people) think they are. Jeb Bush is the last hope in this matter... barring a miracle of some type.
I must admit that I've wondered what all these people who are just licking their chops over Terri's death would do if God reached down and touched her and COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY restored her and she got up with all of her senses and memory intact. What would they do then? Shoot her because Greer said she's supposed to die? This is how ridiculous and preposterous this has become.
If Jeb Bush is afraid to do his duty, I do not believe that he will hold another term in office. I think God will raise someone else up who will take the hard right over the easy wrong.
A politician passing up a photo op is pretty damned remarkable.
You know this does nothing in terms of raising the public's opinion of judges.
The laws on Guardianship in Flori-duh.
Hmmm, a tough case. I can think of several answers here, none of which are allowed on FR. However, no woman should kill her baby just because a funky old pervert in a dress tells her to.
I just received this from RightMarch.com. Even if you only have time to make one or two contacts, please at least do that.
TAKE ACTION: Here are the two areas we need you to take
action in NOW:
1) Governor Jeb Bush has made several statements the last few
days, claiming that he doesn't have the constitutional or
statutory authority to take Terri in to protective custody.
But as we've mentioned before, we *personally* told his people
FACE TO FACE that he DOES have that authority: we had a
meeting on March 23 between folks from RightMarch.com (William
Greene and our attorney, Larry Klayman) and Governor Bush's
chief counsel (his top lawyer on staff). Then we had a meeting
on March 24 between our folks (this time, Larry Klayman AND
Ambassador Alan Keyes) and Gov. Bush's Chief of Staff. Both
times, we presented information on why the Governor DOES have
the authority RIGHT NOW under Florida Law and the Florida
constitution to take Terri into protective custody NOW, and
save her life.
But Gov. Bush failed to take action. Why? We believe that his
staff -- the political cronies that he has surrounded himself
with -- have NOT given him the documents we provided. They
just smirked and gave us political platitudes, acting like
they were doing US some big favor by granting us five minutes
of their valuable time. Then they walked off, apparently
tossing Dr. Keyes' well-researched documents into the trash
when they got back to their spacious corner offices.
These people are more interested in protecting their political
careers than saving Terri's life. So it's time for US to turn
up the heat on them, and DEMAND that they deliver the documents
that Gov. Bush NEEDS -- so he can save Terri Schiavo.
Ambassador Keyes and Larry Klayman are STILL willing to meet
with the Governor, or to have a conference call to explain
his authority, and his DUTY.
We need EVERYONE READING THIS MESSAGE to call Governor Bush's
lead counsel and chief of staff RIGHT AWAY, and tell them to
do one simple thing:
"SHOW GOVERNOR BUSH THE DOCUMENTS FROM ALAN KEYES AND
LARRY KLAYMAN -- TELL HIM TO EXERCISE HIS CONSTITUTIONAL
AUTHORITY, AND TAKE TERRI SCHIAVO INTO PROTECTIVE
CUSTODY RIGHT AWAY."
Call, fax or e-mail now:
Raquel Rodriguez, General Counsel
William Large, Deputy Chief of Staff
Also contact Gov. Bush and ask him to read the documents:
Governor Jeb Bush
(If you get busy signals, or full mailboxes, or unanswered
fax machines, please know that these ARE the correct numbers
and addresses. Just keep trying, if you can.)
You can click below to read -- AND USE -- Alan Keyes'
documentation that explains to Gov. Jeb Bush that he has the
legal authority to save Terri Schiavo... the SAME document
that we delivered to Gov. Bush's staff:
2) On Monday, we'll be sending several representatives up to
Washington, D.C., to confront House Speaker Dennis Hastert and
Congressman Tom DeLay, asking them to explain why they have
not enforced the subpoenas issued by Congress to Terri Schiavo.
Our people will also urge Congress to find Florida Probate
Judge George Greer in contempt for deliberately IGNORING Terri
Call, fax or e-mail Reps. Hastert and DeLay now, urging them
to enforce the Congressional subpoenas and to hold Judge Greer
in contempt -- and to therefore order the re-insertion of Terri
Schiavo's feeding tube... and ask President Bush to order the
Department of Justice to move in to save Terri:
Representative J. Dennis Hastert (R-IL)
Representative Tom DeLay (R-TX)
President George W. Bush
202-456-1414 (White House)
As long as Terri has breath in her body, IT'S NOT TOO LATE to
save her from starving to death. Her family hasn't given up
hope... so NEITHER SHOULD WE.
"I don't want anyone trying to feed that girl.
The law of the case is that she is going to die."
Judge Greer re:Terri Schiavo. Pray4Terri.
Rush: "In a perfect world the public would be outraged that we are killing an innocent citizen. I am not for lawlessness, in spite of this situation. The judges are acting like they are not equal with the other branches of government."
That law was deliberately written to give the federal judge an opportunity to do what he did. The whole thing was a political photo op for congress. They never wanted to save her, because the vast majority of Americans don't want the Feds interfering.
So do I.
OT: Diogenesis, are you familiar with Latin? The name Felos, isn't it rooted in Latin and doesn't it share the same root as such words as felon, felony and felo-de-se, which is defined as:
1 : one who commits suicide or who dies from the effects of having committed an unlawful malicious act
2 : an act of deliberate self-destruction : SUICIDE
How strange if true, given that the name Schiavo means "slave" in Italian.