Photographs don't usually manage to convey the feeling of spirituality that the architecture conveys when one is there in person. I say this as a not particularly religious person.
Anyhow, this photo of a crypt at Winchester Cathedral comes close.
Posted on 09/25/2005 10:50:47 AM PDT by Republicanprofessor
Art Appreciation/Education ping.
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I'm always interested in the dialogue that emerges from these threads as much as from my original post, so let's have at it.
Please add me to your ping list. I'm teaching my kids using the trivium model this year so we are doing much more with art; especially comparing/contrasting Greek/Roman to Christian influenced works.
Do you think the abstract Christian art was felt to be more in keeping with the biblical ban on graven images?
BTW, I'm not too convinced by the last 2 :-)
I don't see the Frank Stella, the last image, as very spiritual; but he was explicitly inspired by those early Medieval pieces like the ones I posted, so that's why I included him. I do see, and feel, Kandinsky as very spiritual. His work just soars and raises my spirits (mood). But we dealt with him before.
What the last two images you show lack, what is present in the more abstract Christian images, is a demonstration of skill. The modern abstractions, regardless of how much skill someone with an art degree might read into them, or even how much skill they actually took to create, they do not give that immediate sense of rarity, of preciousness that the obviously skilled art shown prior evokes even to the untrained eye.
The modern art world today strikes me, a layman, as very schizophrenic. Abstract art tries to communicate something meaningful to me, but fails, because it lacks skill. Realistic art can be quite technically skillful, but is too often hollow, from lack of meaning and robotic composition.
The early Christian and the Greco-Roman Realism pictured above demonstrate both skill and a purity of idea and intent that I find sadly lacking in most art today.
What strikes me about the Egyptian sculpture is not how unrealistic they are compared to later Greek ones, but how much *more* realistic they are than the contemporary Egyptian graphic art. Sculpture like that would seem to require a good understanding of 3-dimensional space, yet their murals and such insist on using this unrealistic lateral POV with no perspective (such as in the bas relief of Akhenaton you posted). Do you have any thoughts on the relationship between realistic depth in sculpture vs. 2-dimensional representations, and why the Egyptians eschewed perspective?
P.S., the last two 'Christian abstract' pieces look like worthless tripe.
Photographs don't usually manage to convey the feeling of spirituality that the architecture conveys when one is there in person. I say this as a not particularly religious person.
Anyhow, this photo of a crypt at Winchester Cathedral comes close.
Sam,
That work looks more Romanesque than Gothic because of the rounded arches. This crypt was the earliest part of what developed to be a (very gothic) Winchester Cathedral. Sometimes these buildings took over 100 years to build. I just love Romanesque architecture and find it to be very spiritual, perhaps because of the arching, heaven-like space we are put into.
Also, the St. John Carpet cross page is one of four, IIRC, which are dividing pages preceding the Gospels.
The Irish Gospels did not shy away from depictions of humans, with depictions of the Saints with their symbols, like St. Luke and a winged bull.
The Egyptians had a very conceptual kind of art. They showed what was the most representative parts of the body. Thus the face was in profile, the shoulders in a frontal view, the legs and feet in profile. It was just as regimented as the sculpture, but because sculpture is 3-D, it looks more realistic.
St. Matthew, from the Lindesfarne Gospels.
I don't think that the manuscript illuminations are so much abstractions as they are codes. They are packed with referential symbolism. Many of the elements are traditional shorthand for Saintly aspects or story points. They were more in the line of illustrations of concepts.
Granted, the lines and perspectives are much flattened, but not appreciatively more so than the mosaics of Pompeii or Hellenistic vase decorations, for example. As Sam Cree pointed out, it is easier to see realistic proportion and perspective in sculpture, and here you are comparing apples to oranges.
I confess to not remembering exactly what romanesque architecture is...seems that I like it, though. I'm still awed by the gothic cathedrals, but haven't found a photo to do one justice.
I had another thought on absractions in realistic art and why they are important - since it's a truism that even in realism, art can't reproduce reality, it follows that to illustrate reality, something of the abstract must be introduced by the artist, something of himself, in other words. Done skillfully, it produces "great" art. I suppose this is all very obvious, but it's making me happy to figure it out.
I think we differ on the definition of abstract art or abstraction. I have always seen abstraction as anything that moves away from from perfect realism, to a small or great degree, to emphasize other aspects that the artists wish. But to double-check, I looked up the definition on line and found essentially the same thing:
From ArtLex dictionary on line, a definition of abstraction: "Imagery which departs from representational accuracy, to a variable range of possible degrees, for some reason other than verisimilitude. Abstract artists select and then exaggerate or simplify the forms suggested by the world around them."
Thus I do see the Chi Rho page from the Book of Kells and the figurative pages from the Lindisfarne Gospel as definitely abstract. They could have written the XP so much more easily, but they went wild with rich, decorative design to emphasize the wonderful spiritual meaning they saw in the gospels. The little heads are recognizably human, but they cannot be called realistic, so I see them as definitely abstract.
You are quite right that these early manuscripts are laden with symbolism. The ox for St. Luke, etc., as a way to, again, embellish their works with more meaning. One can get very absorbed studying these symbols, narratives and design. They are very rich. I enjoy them, but they are definitely not my specialty.
Now, the two twentieth century pieces that I included do border on non-objective art, a fancy term for works that do not even begin with reality but come solely from the artist's mind (the term that many mean when they use the term "abstract." ) 
Now, the Kandinsky, on the left, still seems somewhat (although minimally) based in earthly reality. I see hills and a tower and perhaps a rainbow, so then that would be seen as an abstraction. However, the Frank Stella on the right is definitely non-objective. I couldn't find the other image again and chose a sculpture that really activates 3-D space. I'm still uncertain as to how great his work is. It works well on a superficial, energetic level; I'm not sure that it touches my soul (as do almost all the other works I've shown here).
Now, art is so subjective. If you don't see the hills and rainbow that I do, then you might see Kandinsky's work as non-objective, and much of his work is like that. I show his work a great deal here on FR because it is difficult and my challenge is to get some FReepers to begin to see some meaning in abstraction. Much of what Kandinsky was doing is freeing line from color and freeing shape from outline and, in general, freeing art from past boundaries. At this point, because the camera can capture perfect reality, artists are exploring their deeper subjective and intuitive emotions and ideas and are transferring these to canvas. This work is harder to understand. I like Kandinsky's work a great deal; but later, postmodern work is a bit too free and formless for me. But that's another story....
But what is the perfect realism of a letterform? At one level, any glyph is an abstraction of an idea into an instantly recognizable code. The letterforms of this comment are just glyphs representing sounds, grouped into lumps representing words. So is the Chi Ro an abstraction of an abstraction, or just a glyph which has been highly decorated?
In terms of stylistic classification, I think the manuscript art has more in common with surrealism than modern "abstract" art. It is not concerned with showing things as they are, in a realistic manner, as it is in invoking a message using a symbolic code.
While this agrees with your definition of abstraction, it goes against the modern concept of what abstract art is. I think the two modern examples you show contain an abstraction that lessens the content, while the medieval examples enrich the content. The Kandinski tells us nothing more about the rainbow than surface coloration. I find nothing spiritual in it beyond a trite use of primary colors; any further depth is entirely subjective from viewer to viewer. Any artist who falls back on the "what do YOU think it means" school of content is merely lazy, or hasn't any real meaning in mind.
The Otto page, OTOH, would have invoked whole layers of ideas in its intended audience, containing direct and recognizable references to their understanding of the spiritual realm.
I guess maybe I'll show and explain some more about Romanesque and Gothic before I move onto Renaissance (in this "lecture" series). I'll have to use a lot of architectural terms, but it is really worth it. These buildings are stunning, and very spiritual.
Until then.
I would point out that the difference between the early Christian abstractions and the contemorary ones is the use of content: the early Christian art evokes concepts of spirituality, virtue and Heaven. The modern abstractions by contrast seem to emphasize pure form and act on the perceptual rather than the conceptual level.
I will continue with your lecture series as the days and weeks pass, thank you.
Perceptual vs. conceptual. Good point; I'll have to think about this more.
Are my own spirits raised more by the perceptual than the conceptual? I do love the concepts behind Chinese painting as well as their visual floating spaces....hmmmm.... And I love the soaring Gothic cathedrals and the concepts therein too....Some other Catholic images seem awfully dogmatic conceptually. Hmmm. Have to ponder this.
Thanks for the thoughts. I look forward to your other ideas as you wade through the series.
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