I suppose you are aware of the military axiom that the Combat Infantryman's Badge is the only marksmanship award that really means anything....
Posted on 12/10/2006 10:43:49 AM PST by Bear_Slayer
I know. But I still don't think I'd select it for personal defense. Evaluating the potential lethality of the other guy's weapon and selecting your own for same are two different exercises.
Unfortunately a .22 requires more than mere "good shooting." Shooting well enough to hit a dime sized target under the extreme stress of a life or death hostile encounter is well beyond the abilities of most folks. At least 98% of the "non-shooting" pro self defense community. These are the folks who will pick up a gun at a gun show or even worse from a gunshop on the advice of a salesman who knows how to sell, but not much about self defense and there's nobody competent hovering around like there might be at a gun show. Usually a salesman is telling the female he's selling to the cute little 22 (what attracts most girls is the CUTE factor if they're novices) is just fine for self defense. I have intervened politely many times in a sale because the weapon was IMHO inappropriate. At first the sales guy is indignant, but not after I help his client make a decision for a better firearm. Then they take their CCW classes from me.
For a person who dislikes recoil so much that they won't practice with a 22 or has some kind of physical infirmity that prohibits them from shooting a heavier caliber, just shooting a 22 "well" ain't gonna cut it. Anybody close enough to notice a solid hit from a 22LR is going to be able and I'll bet.... willing to kill the defender unless the first defensive shot results in a neural band "no twitch" shot. Such shots are imminently possible, police snipers do them all the time. So do MOSSAD agents and various and sundry other dirty trick dept alphabet soup agencies all over the world. It requires training, skill and....PRACTICE. More practice than most people are willing to give.
OTOH, which would you rather face as a bad guy in the 250-325 pound fat slob range....a little old lady with her Beretta JetFire 22LR or that same lady with her S&W 9mm Chief's Special or something even bigger? The behemoth bad guy isn't even going to feel a 22 in the gut...at least not right away. But he'll notice anything the size of a 9mm or bigger. He notice it a lot more if he's hit a lot more. Multiple 9mm shots in the area of the abdomen are far more likely to cause the cavitation needed for a more immediate incapacitation than multiple 22's. It's a matter of cross sectional density of the round. Or in other words....in this instance size matters!
If you read to the end of my post... I said my advice was for the largest caliber that you can shoot well.
I use Federal Classic .22 hollowpoints which sell in 550 round boxes at Walmart for $8.95. I can consistently shoot 1/4" five shot groups at 25 yards with it from a sandbag rest, and that compares well to anything I have tried in that particular rifle except the very expensive Eley match grade ammo. If you haven't tried it you should. It might save you some bucks on practice ammo that you could spend for quality match ammo for real accuracy work.
I've tried the federal before. It worked good in one of my rifles, but not the others. Often, two same model guns will like different ammo. If it works for you, all the better.
Actually, I DID read that. I wasn't on a rant at you which I should have made clear....my apologies. I wanted to address the folks who are among those non shooter pro self defense folks I mentioned. I wanted them to take heed of my words and remember them the next time some slick gunshop salesman or gunshow salesman tries to sell them a cute little small caliber pistol, ideal for self defense. So sorry it really wasn't aimed at you. lol
No problem.
I always advise people to NOT go to a gun shop, but rather go to a gun club/shooting range and borrow various handguns to try before ever thinking about a purchase.
Most friendly gun clubs will have plenty of guys that will let anyone give theirs a try if they pay for the ammo. (and perhaps a beer after the guns are put away)
I would imagine most any ammo manufacturer's web site would have trajectory info. I know Federal does.
It would appear that as a rule of thumb you should be shooting about two inches high at 100 yards to be "zeroed" at 200 yards.
Me too. I've never run them through a chronograph, but they make the most satisfying, sharpest 'crack' coming out of the barrel and have enough recoil that I can actually feel it.
I get 1/4"-1/2" groups with them at 25 yards and 1 1/2" to 2 1/2" groups at 75 yards (depending on how shaky I am that day) which is as far as I'd shoot at anything with a .22.
I have a .22 Magnum rifle and the ammo my gun (Marlin 883SS - pretty gun) likes best is the Winchester Super-X 40gr JHP. I get 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards shooting from a solid rest with them, and that's good enough for me.
With that said, the next gun I buy will probably be a .17HMR varmint rifle. I've been reading lots of good stuff about that cartridge. Highly susceptible to wind drift, but accurate to 300 yards with a good gun.
Hardly. Hunters took elephant for years with the .577 and .600 cartridges of the black powder era, with both preferred frontal and sometimes necessary flank shots. Usually double rifles were preferred, as recoil was brutal, and reloading could be problematic with several tons of very mad animal coming your way at full speed. And even as nitrocellouse powder came into use and improved nitro-powder loads for the big doubles challenged the smaller calibers that became viable for the same purpose, there were adherents of either approach- and those who happily tried both.
But hunters of that era rarely worked alone, and you gauged the character of your friends as if your life depended on them, because it very well could.
There were even those as late as the 1960s and '70s who found the big double rifles just the ticket, such as those of the Rhodesian .577 Society and the Terre Haute Torque and Recoil Society. But they hurt my ears. And shoulder.
I suppose you are aware of the military axiom that the Combat Infantryman's Badge is the only marksmanship award that really means anything....
What are the standards for the award of the C.I.B.? 30, 60 maybe 90 days (dunno which) of continuous service as an infantryman in a combat zone? Forgive me but that's not necessarily marksmanship skill as much as survival skill. Like knowing how and when to find good cover! For an officer it might mean superior skills at adjusting artillery or air assets onto a target. Most LT's worth their salt aren't shooting, they're directing movement and on the radio, giving sitreps to higher and calling in said arty or air...
But hunters of that era rarely worked alone, and you gauged the character of your friends as if your life depended on them, because it very well could.
I think it was once said that companion hunters of the highest possible skill and courage were required to hunt BUFF and that selection for such a hunt was a compliment of the highest order. BUFF and HIPPO kill more folks each year than just about another other species.
I remember the reload sequence for a double rifle was to have the spare rounds held between the 1st and 2nd & 2nd and third fingers of the off hand for quick insertion into the chambers. Is that correct?
It's varied, and it's changed over the years since the award was first authorized in 1943. After Operation Just Because in Panama, of short but furious duration, the requirement was dropped to 24 hours, I believe, and also included Artillery FO's, Combat Engineers and support troops such as MPs if they had a secondary MOS in Infantry; in my time you had to be assigned to an Infantry unit and spend 30 days in combat.
Our unit SOP was that anyone who qualified for a CIB also automatically got a Bronze Star as well. That too was likely very different for other units then, and has probably also changed since. But as I understand it:
1) A soldier must be an Army infantry or special forces officer (SSI 11 or 18) in the grade of colonel or below, or an Army enlisted soldier or warrant officer with an infantry or special forces MOS, who subsequent to 6 December 1941 has satisfactorily performed duty while assigned or attached as a member of an infantry, ranger or special forces unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size during any period such unit was engaged in active ground combat. Eligibility for special forces personnel (less the special forces medical sergeant) accrues from 20 December 1989. Retroactive awards for special forces personnel are not authorized.
(2) A recipient must be personally present and under hostile fire while serving in an assigned infantry or special forces primary duty, in a unit actively engaged in ground combat with the enemy. The unit in question can be of any size smaller than brigade. For example, personnel possessing an infantry MOS in a rifle squad of a cavalry platoon in a cavalry troop would be eligible for award of the CIB. Battle or campaign participation credit alone is not sufficient; the unit must have been in active ground combat with the enemy during the period.
(3) Personnel with other than an infantry or special forces MOS are not eligible, regardless of the circumstances. The infantry or special forces SSI or MOS does not necessarily have to be the soldier's primary specialty, as long as the soldier has been properly trained in infantry or special forces tactics, possesses the appropriate skill code, and is serving in that specialty when engaged in active ground combat as described above. Commanders are not authorized to make any exceptions to this policy.
(4) Awards will not be made to general officers nor to members of headquarters companies of units larger in size than brigade.
Sort of. The Cape Buffalo [Syncerus caffer or Baas Buffel killed more people including natives than the other members of the African *Big Five,* while the very territorial Hippo kills more members of hunting parties at disputed waterholes; either can easily outrun a human. But neither consider humans as a primary food source, and crocs do.
I remember the reload sequence for a double rifle was to have the spare rounds held between the 1st and 2nd & 2nd and third fingers of the off hand for quick insertion into the chambers. Is that correct?
That's one method, and probably the most common. Another was to carry a single round in the off hand, on the theory that if that last shot was needed, it'd be a matter of desperation, and having two holes to drop the single round into doubled the chances of making it happen, usually during a hunt for big cats. And there were those who carried that last backup round in the mouth between their teeth instead, rim outward.
Yeah, I remember that fellow. Dead now.
[i]”the .22 is quite deadly, it just usually takes longer to bleed out.”[/i]
The .22 LR is a rather curious hunting round, being a mix of incredibly dangerous to almost harmless. I will try and provide the basic details of each.
First, no, you can’t stop an elephant with a heart shot. The standard hollowpoint round will flatten to about 2 cm in diameter max on impact with bone. If fired from a pistol, distance, or failing to contact bone, the bullet is unlikely to mushroom at all due to insufficient velocity. If it doesn’t mushroom on contact and if the target/victim has elastic skin characteristics, the entrance hole will only be about 3mm (which is less than the diameter of the bullet.). This small opening can make “bleeding out” a rather unlikely possibility unless the targeted victim is very small (Hence, no elephants). If the bullet doesn’t mushroom, the damage is limited to about the equivelent of stabbing the victim with a sharp pencil (albeit with tremendous force.). If it mushrooms, then it would be like striking the victim with four pencils held in one hand. However, unless you hit a plated bone surface, such as a skull, the odds of hitting bone are small, meaning a pencil sized wound track with a small entry hole is the most likely result. This is why many shooters have reported, absent a head, neck, or heart shot, of shooting gophers and racoons without stopping them.
You can improve your chances of the bullet mushrooming without a bone hit by using high velocity ammunition as it is the lack of velocity that causes the bullet to fail to mushroom on contact with flesh. A longer barrell on your weapon will also increase bullet velocity (The short barrell of a pistol will generally not produce enough velocity to cause a .22 hollowpoint to mushroom.). If you can get your bullet to mushroom, it’s the equivelent of hitting the target with 2-4 non-mushrooming rounds.
The CCI “Stinger” has nice mushrooming characteristics.
The .22’s lack of velocity is due to its light bullet weight. Hunting velocities are generally not achieved with bullets under 60 grams and most .22’s seldom exceed 40 grams. The bullet simply lacks sufficient momentum to maintain speed and rapidly loses velocity after 100 yards. This means that, at a point past 100 yards (usually about 110 but often more) your bullet is not going to mushroom on impact even if you hit the target. In that case, your chances of an instantly fatal hit are less than halved - And they weren’t that good before.
For the above reasons, neither gun companies nor ammunition companies will recommend a .22 handgun for self defense. With it’s lack of bullet mushrooming, even on bone contact, defending yourself with a .22 pistol is rather like defending yourself with an icepick. Your bullets are going to do about the same amount of damage.
Now let’s make the .22 LR lethal. It has killed a lot of people and prey. You can even use it to kill cattle. The trick is to use head shots.
The .22 is an extremely lethal round when applied to the brain. This includes the .22 Short which does an enormous amount of damage to the brain. A .22 Short can easily kill a deer with a headshot at up to 50 yards. The reason for this lethality is that a .22 transmits 100% of its energy to the brain. A .22 Short will penetrate the skull on one side of the target, fully transit the brain, but then lack the energy to penetrate the other side of the skull to exit. Instead, the round ricochets back into the brain again. In effect, the bullet literally bounces around inside the victim’s brain. The target is dead, killed by a .22 short.
The .22 LR performs somewhat similarly. Having twice the powder charge, it will penetrate both sides of the skull at up to 50 yards, but will also “bounce around” in the skull between 50-100 yards, creating a lethal mess.
Even if the .22 LR passes through both sides of the skull, the bullet generates a sufficient shock wave as to render the target unconscious on the spot. While unconscious, the body will increase blood pressure, swelling the brain, which leads to death within hours.
Thus, the .22 LR can go from being relatively harmless to almost certainly fatal. If you’re a very good shot, you can kill pretty much anything you want, up to, and even over, 100 yards. Otherwise, expect to wound it at best.
Another area the .22 targets effectively is the neck. The neck provides the brain with blood, the body with air, and contains all nerve cords for the lower body. A neck shot can interfere with one or even all three of these functions.
From the survivalist perspective, one can’t afford to hit the target and then have it run away to die elsewhere. Therefore, unless the target is small (rodent or bird sized) you must make head and throat shots routinely. This is best achieved by sighting your rifle in for shots of 60-70 yards. Try several brands of HP ammunition and look for the ones with the tightest pattern (Also check for mushrooming.). You should find you can still hit the target at 100 yards by aiming about 3-5 inches over it or hit targets at under your sighted range by aiming 1 inch under it (A mil dot reticle scope will take care of most of this automatically.).
If you have a .22 LR pistol for home or self defense then by now you should know the problem. No velocity equals no mushroom. Stay with a longer barrel and use high velocity ammo (such as Velocitor or Stingers). Use head or throat shots. Maintain maximum distance between you and the target (Stay yards away from him and not “feet”.). If the situation is dark and does not allow you to see the sights, use the middle finger to pull the trigger while the index finger is placed on and parallel to the barrel. The weapon will now shoot where your finger points (Practice this in daylight first.).
In the hands of a skilled and knowledgeable shooter, the .22 LR is a very lethal round. In the hands of an amateur it’s pretty harmless.
I can remember when I bought bulk 22s as cheap as possible. The goal was to learn to instinctively shoot. It mattered not what quality as long as the bang was there. As I progressed I became more fickle and accuracy became the prime concern — But different guns had a widely varying opinion as to what was good for them. I have no idea how many rounds went through my single six, but to this day it still wobbles from the punishment. I can pick up near any firearm and get reasonable results when required. Training was my goal.
Depends on what you intend to do with the ammo. The goal is what is important. I’ve moved on to other weapons, but still have a stable of 22s for just practicing.
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