Posted on 09/16/2008 10:08:51 PM PDT by Ramius
Burton (whose wife famously said “If I were a man, I would want to be Richard Burton, but not being a man, I will be his wife”) described the same “Fire and Stones” cut that Musashi advocated for disarming your opponent. In his match to attain the rank of “swordmaster” Burton used the stroke three times to disarm his opponent, until the opponents wrist was so hurt he couldn't continue the match.
I've never been one you would call competent with sharp objects, in fact if a person wanted to kill me with a knife all he would have to do is hand it to me.
Fascinating however.
No, I’m not a member of SCA. I understand that lots of people are into the whole ren-faire reenactment sort of thing, and that’s fine, but it’s just not my sort of thing. “It’s not my bag, baby...”. :-)
I do believe, however, that there was a powerful European martial art that was (and can be again) just as elegant, spiritual, and lethal as any of the more well-preserved asian martial arts.
After the Renaissance, as the age of the firearm dawned, fighting with swords of course largely became obsolete, and the old masters (like Lichtenauer, George Silver, Sigmund Ringeck and others) died off and the teaching of the Art died with them. But there are a number of organizations ernestly researching the documentation that does exist and there is a growing interest in giving this true martial art a re-birth.
It’s a true martial art. Of that there’s just no doubt. I got interested because of my interest in history, and because it is part of my own cultural heritage. I bought a Viking sword and started wondering one day “how was this thing actually used...”. As is turned out, that was an expensive day. What started as one has become several, but it’s only the beginning... :-)
LOL. As the old saying goes:
“Those who live by the sword, get shot by those that don’t”.
Point taken. :-)
Please add me to your ping list as well
I would like to be added to your ping list if there is one.
In all seriousness, if a good blade man is within 7-10 yards of me, I’d rather have my gun in my hand than in a holster.
Re: Quillons (also called quillions). This refers to the cross part of the hilt. In the later forms of complex hilts on rapiers and such, the other bits had their own names.
Yah. That’s no joke. With even only one step a swordsman can cover a lot of ground and control an astonishingly large area.
Regards,
TS
Nice. Thanks!
Yes, quillions, of course. Typo on my part.
Actually, I’ve seen it spelled both ways. Don’t know is one is more “right” than the other.
Add me to your ping list, please.
“I do believe, however, that there was a powerful European martial art that was (and can be again) just as elegant, spiritual, and lethal as any of the more well-preserved asian martial arts.”
I had heard about that. The draw being people looking for a form of martial arts that wasn’t based on Eastern Spirituality.
I’ve seen those before. While that guy has it mostly right, I’d add a little bit:
Der Waage. The Balance. The stance should be from a Der Waage, that is, a slightly wider (wider than the shoulders) spread of the feet with the knees bent more, almost but not quite to a 90 degree angle. This lowers the center of gravity and creates a more powerful base to strike from. IMHO.
My perception of the SCA members is that they are into the history and re-enactment of the medieval time period and less about re-enacting Renaissance Fairs. Many make their own period clothes, either make or buy armor made by modern day armorers, eat period foods, and generally study the martial arts as well as, brewing, herbal medicines, etc.
The last SCA event I went to had little to none resemblance to a Renaissance Fair but had some medieval period martial art experts offer live demonstrations and explanations of various tactics and weaponry.
My son is majoring in History and Archeology he will be completing his Bachelors degrees this next year and intends on going the whole way to Phd.
Because of his interest, I have become interested in this subject as well. Last year, I purchased a 16th century book which has incredible color drawings of royal family crests, military insignias, etc. that my son says was used to determine the authenticity of a stranger coming into town making those kinds of claims. They evidently would be asked to show their credentials including crests or what have you and then would be cross checked with this book.
I have been looking for a sword but have been concerned about buying one that is authentic. I did get a bronze age ax and bracelet that was determined to be authentic and that is a real joy. I can relate to your wondering about the living history of your Viking sword...who used it, why and how, etc.
Of course European Medieval martial arts are real...what strikes me is the current mistaken belief that Europe was backwards compared to other cultures. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, all one needs do is listen to the music of that era to know otherwise. Besides the incredible science and art capabilities. I am enjoying your informative posts on this subject and hope you will continue.
Thanks again, John
When you say "authentic", do you mean an actual historical antique, or an accurate reproduction? There is a lot of pseudo-fantasy dreck on the market, but if you are looking for what they actually used, the authority on the subject is Ewart Oakeshott, who was referenced above by Ramius.
He was a scholar who devised a typeology method for classifying swords. Nowadays, when a sword is found in an archeological dig or an old collection, it is generally described by one of Oakeshott's classifications.
The sword dealers who are supplying the Western Martial Arts enthusiasts are selling reproductions which have been adapted for sparring (flexable "blunts" or "rebated") as well as totally accurate recreations ("sharps").
A couple of dealers with a good reputation:
Darkwood Armory
Angus Trim
A little lower end/ mass produced:
Hanwei/ CAS Iberia
If you are looking to drop a lot of $ on a beautiful hand-forged repro piece, I can point you at some people who do that as well. As for antique pieces, those are available out there, but I have no recommendations as to dealers.
Your comments are right on point. Thanks!
For someone wanting an accurate reproduction I’d also recommend my current favorite: Albion. It took me a while to decide to pull the trigger but I’ve finally ordered a couple of theirs. Don’t have them yet. They’re still several weeks out. One is the blunt Lichtenauer, for sparring and the other is the sharp Baron, with a period scabbard. I can hardly wait.
They’re here: http://www.albion-swords.com
I’ve handled their Lichtenauer that a friend owns, and... wow. The difference between it and my Hanwei blunt is clear. The Hanwei works OK, nothing is really wrong with it other than it’s a little whippy in the blade, but the Albion instantly just “feels right”. Huge difference. Gotta have one. :-)
I’ve heard of the Albions from WMA folk in Britain, but haven’t seen any. They do have a good rep, from what I hear. It’s amazing the difference a quality blade makes in what you can do with it.
I’m more into the later Italian rapier forms than the German longsword work, although I’ve done an I33 sword and buckler workshop that was a hoot.
(ps: I read your earlier thread. Don’t take Silver as too much gospel; he had an axe to grind. He was basically saying “Take yer furrin’ rapier thingies and get off my lawn. If English sword and buckler was good enough for Dad, it’s good enough for me! My Kung Fu is better than your decadent Karate!”)
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