Posted on 09/16/2008 10:08:51 PM PDT by Ramius
Sword Post 2:
Woohoo! It’s time for Tuesday night Sword Pron!
Today’s topic: Guards.
“Guards” are essentially stances. They’re places to start and places to end. They are ways to hold the sword to begin fighting, and curiously enough, most of the strikes that one will take with a sword are merely a progression from one “guard” or “hut” to another.
To wit:
There are 4 basic guards. Since the vast majority of the surviving source material is in German, they are named in German. The picture is from a 14th century Fechtbuch (fight book). They are (in the order of the picture: “Alber” (fool), “Vom Tag” (from the roof), “Ochs” (Ox), and “Pflug” (plow). These were the four taught by master Leichtenauer in the 14th century. Leichtenauer is pretty much the reference standard for European Longsword. Later masters almost always referenced him as the first original source.
The guards are symmetric… that is… there are left foot forward and right foot forward, left or right hand analogues of each guard, with the sword on either the right or left side.
Alber
The fool. Called this, most think, because it baits the unknowing opponent into thinking that with the sword low they are open to an easy attack. Don’t get stuck on stupid. Alber is possibly one of the best defensive postures to take. And an awesome offensive posture too. One of my favorites. It’s a killer.
Vom Tag
From the Roof. This guard actually includes many variations of the “high” guard. It can be up over one shoulder, as well as being up high over the head. The essence of it is that the sword is cocked back overhead, usually over a shoulder. This is the most powerful place to start a downward strike. Of course.
Ochs
The Ox. A wonderfully versatile guard. I’ve found in practice and sparring that I end up in Ochs much of the time, and both left-hand and right-hand. There’s lots of good strikes that end up in Ochs, and lots of good strikes that start in Ochs. So… it’s a very useful place to be.
Pflug
The Plow. A middle guard with the sword pointed at the opponent. Hands near the hips and sword pointed up toward the opponent’s face. A natural starting place, but not a strong place to strike from, other than the lunge forward.
A fifth guard, not in Leichtenauer: Nebenhut.
The tail guard. An additional guard, found in later studies than Leichtenauer, but well preserved. This is a wonderfully useful guard. Many strikes end up in Nebenhut. It gives the illusion of vulnerability, like Alber, since the blade is back and pointed away from the adversary and yet it is a very powerful place to strike from, especially with the short-edge of the blade. There is a powerful Unterhau (under strike) and of course a powerful Oberhau (over strike) from this position.
Next, we’ll do a short class on Unterhau, Oberhau, and Meisterhau. (Under strikes, Over strikes, and Master strikes).
Preview: A “Meisterhau” is a “master stroke” and it is defined as being at once offensive and defensive at the same time. It is a strike that defends first.
Do you have a ping list? If so, could you add me?
Sword fighters unite! (we may need these skills:) ping me if you got one!
I am wondering if you are a member of the SCA...my son is very big into medieval history, including armoring (sp?), leatherworking, medieval martial arts, and just about everything medieval. I will have to email him your post.
He just returned a few weeks ago from an archaeological dig in Belgium. He spent four weeks at an old medieval castle ruin digging and just loved it.
A friend of his recently challenged me to a sword fight...duel I guess (SCA standards) because I made fun of his sword fighting technique which I now see is a legitimate defensive stance (overhead in your post). Seems to me to be limited in strike capability and also, this young man tends to lean back making him a bit off balance for striking at his opponents. That is how we got onto the challenge as I told him that even I as an old man (but who has experience in brawling) can beat him because I would know when he would begin his swing and have plenty of time to react to it...I am not quite so confident now that I see it is a legitimate style of fighting...I don’t really know anything about sword fighting, but will enjoy even getting pounded I am sure. Thanks for posting that information.
For tomorrow.
I have a small but treasured collection of ancient weaponry. If you have a pinglist it would be an honor to be included in it.
I, too would like to be added to any ping list you assemble on this topic.
I actually am in the SCA. If you have more in future, ping me, please.
Hmmm...I was always partial to Katanas myself.../shrugs
BTW, anyone know anything about WWII Japanses Officer Katanas??? I have one in a red case and one in a leather case that my Grandfather brought back from the Pacific with him.
Puchased or war trophies(personally captured)?
Standard issue is still fairly valuable but a family sword is in a whole different league.
Same as above, if you have a ping list please add me.
Very nice post. Can you link the first post?
Please add me to your ping list. I don’t own a blade longer than my Ontario RAT7, but this is fascinating.
Another for your ping list, if there is one.
ping
This is a re-post of something that I posted previously on another thread some time ago but it starts off the discussion of swords:
Sword Parts:
There are of course the familiar parts, from left to right on the picture, of Blade, Guard, Grip and Pommel. The Guard is also called the "Cross". Some refer to the Guard as the "Quillions", but that may refer specifically to guards made with fancy loops and hoops, decorations and such.
The Blade is further divided into the "weak" and the "strong". The weak part is that from the point about halfway back and the strong part is from halfway back to the Guard. This comes from the amount of leverage you can apply to the blade. If you bind or parry another sword on the "strong" part, naturally you have much more leverage than if you bind closer to your point. If you bind your strong against your opponent's weak, then you get to control where the swords go.
[language note: The word comes from the german "binden" meaning "to bind" which is when the two swords are in contact, often ending up with the guards locked forcefully. When this happens, a grappling match is about to break out or one of them is about to break the bind and strike decisively. Either way, somebody's about to die. One wonders if this isn't the origin of the expression "to really be in a bind" when one is in deep trouble.]
The blade also has a "long" (or "true") edge and "short" (or "false") edge. This terminology originated with curved swords like a saber or cutlass where one edge is actually longer than the other since it's on the outside of the curve. This terminology applies still to double-edged longswords with straight blades, even though both edges are obviously the same length. In this case it depends on how you're holding it and where your knuckles are. The edge that lines up with your knuckles is the "long" edge. This would be the primary striking edge for the basic downward strike you'd make from high to low. The short edge would be the other one, on the "back" of the blade, that is, the edge that lines up with the webbing of your thumbs.
The short edge is just as useful as the long edge, perhaps more. There are some sneaky underhanded tricks involving strikes with the short edge. More on that another day.
Every blade has an optimal spot on the edges to strike with, just like every baseball bat has a "sweet spot". This is the Center of Percussion (CoP). It's generally just several inches down from the tip. You can find this spot easily by holding the sword out in front of you with one hand, point up, edge-on, and hit the pommel with the heel of your free hand. The sword will vibrate visibly in your hand. There will be two "nodes" in the vibration that don't move. One will be (on a good sword) just at or above your hand no more than an inch or two out from the guard, and the other will be up several inches from the tip. That's the place to hit things. At that spot you get to take advantage of the natural harmonics of the blade, transferring little or no vibration back to your hands and more importantly, not wasting energy that's absorbed into the vibration of the blade. But that said, when you get a chance to cut-- you cut. The whole blade cuts just fine.
Many blades also have a deep groove down each side called a "fuller". In longswords this groove was generally narrow and about 1/2 to 3/4 the length of the blade. In Viking swords the fuller was usually wide, perhaps more than half the whole width of the blade and went all the way down just short of the tip.
Contrary to popular myth this is not a "blood groove" to let blood flow out of a wound more quickly. It doesn't work that way. The primary purpose is to make the blade lighter by removing steel. It also makes the blade stiffer, due to the round concave cross-section on each side. Not all longswords featured a fuller but had a diamond-shaped cross-section. Some had dual or triple fullers in parallel.
Another myth: Longswords were heavy and cumbersome. Not so. Most were only 2.5 to 3.5 lbs, not 10 or more as many people think. With two hands, a properly made one is amazingly lively, fast and nimble. That said, swinging one around for an hour or so-- with intent-- is a heck of a workout. But most sword fights didn't last very long... probably ten or fifteen seconds. Thirty seconds would be a long one.
Another myth: Armor made soldiers slow to move and unable to even get up if they fell down. Nonsense. Sure, chain mail or plate armor was heavy. But not that heavy. It was nothing compared to to what modern soldiers and Marines carry around every day. But more on that another day.
Types of swords.
Just some basics, nowhere near exhaustive, of course:
Longswords, from two-handed to hand-and-a-half (or "bastard" sword). Various lengths and styles. Generally used with both hands without a shield. Often, but not always, with armor or chain mail. Note the differences in grip length, overall length, blade cross-section and distal taper:
Oakeshott Type XIIIa
Oakeshott Type XVa
Single-handed swords, generally used with a shield or buckler (small shield, about 12in to 16in in diameter):
Oakeshott Type Xa
Oakeshott Type XVIII
Viking sword. Most commonly had this sort of "lobed" pommel, and a wide fuller running nearly the full length of the blade. Guards where usually short. Sometimes straight, sometimes curved out toward the tip:
Oakeshott Type Z
And just for fun... The Grosse Messer (German for "big knife", for obvious reasons). It's even bigger than it looks. I've handled one, and decided that it was just silly. If you don't get a good hit on the first strike, it's too heavy and slow to recover. You can't help but overcommit. But then again, if you ~do~ get a good hit, you're done with that job:
Well, that's probably enough for now. Some fun stuff, though, huh?
Burton (whose wife famously said “If I were a man, I would want to be Richard Burton, but not being a man, I will be his wife”) described the same “Fire and Stones” cut that Musashi advocated for disarming your opponent. In his match to attain the rank of “swordmaster” Burton used the stroke three times to disarm his opponent, until the opponents wrist was so hurt he couldn't continue the match.
I've never been one you would call competent with sharp objects, in fact if a person wanted to kill me with a knife all he would have to do is hand it to me.
Fascinating however.
No, I’m not a member of SCA. I understand that lots of people are into the whole ren-faire reenactment sort of thing, and that’s fine, but it’s just not my sort of thing. “It’s not my bag, baby...”. :-)
I do believe, however, that there was a powerful European martial art that was (and can be again) just as elegant, spiritual, and lethal as any of the more well-preserved asian martial arts.
After the Renaissance, as the age of the firearm dawned, fighting with swords of course largely became obsolete, and the old masters (like Lichtenauer, George Silver, Sigmund Ringeck and others) died off and the teaching of the Art died with them. But there are a number of organizations ernestly researching the documentation that does exist and there is a growing interest in giving this true martial art a re-birth.
It’s a true martial art. Of that there’s just no doubt. I got interested because of my interest in history, and because it is part of my own cultural heritage. I bought a Viking sword and started wondering one day “how was this thing actually used...”. As is turned out, that was an expensive day. What started as one has become several, but it’s only the beginning... :-)
LOL. As the old saying goes:
“Those who live by the sword, get shot by those that don’t”.
Point taken. :-)
Please add me to your ping list as well
I would like to be added to your ping list if there is one.
In all seriousness, if a good blade man is within 7-10 yards of me, I’d rather have my gun in my hand than in a holster.
Re: Quillons (also called quillions). This refers to the cross part of the hilt. In the later forms of complex hilts on rapiers and such, the other bits had their own names.
Yah. That’s no joke. With even only one step a swordsman can cover a lot of ground and control an astonishingly large area.
Regards,
TS
Nice. Thanks!
Yes, quillions, of course. Typo on my part.
Actually, I’ve seen it spelled both ways. Don’t know is one is more “right” than the other.
Add me to your ping list, please.
“I do believe, however, that there was a powerful European martial art that was (and can be again) just as elegant, spiritual, and lethal as any of the more well-preserved asian martial arts.”
I had heard about that. The draw being people looking for a form of martial arts that wasn’t based on Eastern Spirituality.
I’ve seen those before. While that guy has it mostly right, I’d add a little bit:
Der Waage. The Balance. The stance should be from a Der Waage, that is, a slightly wider (wider than the shoulders) spread of the feet with the knees bent more, almost but not quite to a 90 degree angle. This lowers the center of gravity and creates a more powerful base to strike from. IMHO.
My perception of the SCA members is that they are into the history and re-enactment of the medieval time period and less about re-enacting Renaissance Fairs. Many make their own period clothes, either make or buy armor made by modern day armorers, eat period foods, and generally study the martial arts as well as, brewing, herbal medicines, etc.
The last SCA event I went to had little to none resemblance to a Renaissance Fair but had some medieval period martial art experts offer live demonstrations and explanations of various tactics and weaponry.
My son is majoring in History and Archeology he will be completing his Bachelors degrees this next year and intends on going the whole way to Phd.
Because of his interest, I have become interested in this subject as well. Last year, I purchased a 16th century book which has incredible color drawings of royal family crests, military insignias, etc. that my son says was used to determine the authenticity of a stranger coming into town making those kinds of claims. They evidently would be asked to show their credentials including crests or what have you and then would be cross checked with this book.
I have been looking for a sword but have been concerned about buying one that is authentic. I did get a bronze age ax and bracelet that was determined to be authentic and that is a real joy. I can relate to your wondering about the living history of your Viking sword...who used it, why and how, etc.
Of course European Medieval martial arts are real...what strikes me is the current mistaken belief that Europe was backwards compared to other cultures. Nothing could be further from the truth. Indeed, all one needs do is listen to the music of that era to know otherwise. Besides the incredible science and art capabilities. I am enjoying your informative posts on this subject and hope you will continue.
Thanks again, John
When you say "authentic", do you mean an actual historical antique, or an accurate reproduction? There is a lot of pseudo-fantasy dreck on the market, but if you are looking for what they actually used, the authority on the subject is Ewart Oakeshott, who was referenced above by Ramius.
He was a scholar who devised a typeology method for classifying swords. Nowadays, when a sword is found in an archeological dig or an old collection, it is generally described by one of Oakeshott's classifications.
The sword dealers who are supplying the Western Martial Arts enthusiasts are selling reproductions which have been adapted for sparring (flexable "blunts" or "rebated") as well as totally accurate recreations ("sharps").
A couple of dealers with a good reputation:
Darkwood Armory
Angus Trim
A little lower end/ mass produced:
Hanwei/ CAS Iberia
If you are looking to drop a lot of $ on a beautiful hand-forged repro piece, I can point you at some people who do that as well. As for antique pieces, those are available out there, but I have no recommendations as to dealers.
Your comments are right on point. Thanks!
For someone wanting an accurate reproduction I’d also recommend my current favorite: Albion. It took me a while to decide to pull the trigger but I’ve finally ordered a couple of theirs. Don’t have them yet. They’re still several weeks out. One is the blunt Lichtenauer, for sparring and the other is the sharp Baron, with a period scabbard. I can hardly wait.
They’re here: http://www.albion-swords.com
I’ve handled their Lichtenauer that a friend owns, and... wow. The difference between it and my Hanwei blunt is clear. The Hanwei works OK, nothing is really wrong with it other than it’s a little whippy in the blade, but the Albion instantly just “feels right”. Huge difference. Gotta have one. :-)
I’ve heard of the Albions from WMA folk in Britain, but haven’t seen any. They do have a good rep, from what I hear. It’s amazing the difference a quality blade makes in what you can do with it.
I’m more into the later Italian rapier forms than the German longsword work, although I’ve done an I33 sword and buckler workshop that was a hoot.
(ps: I read your earlier thread. Don’t take Silver as too much gospel; he had an axe to grind. He was basically saying “Take yer furrin’ rapier thingies and get off my lawn. If English sword and buckler was good enough for Dad, it’s good enough for me! My Kung Fu is better than your decadent Karate!”)
LOL... you’re right about Silver. Didn’t like Italians much, at all. :-)
What’s interesting about Silver to me is his discussion of the “times”. The “time” of the hand, body, foot. It’s his commentary on body mechanics that I think is interesting and very useful.
There are certain universals in swordplay, regardless of the weapon in hand. Time, measure, position, balance, leverage, etc. Silver’s system is a very effective synthesis of those elemental concepts. However, they can be used just as well with a rapier or a longsword as with Silver’s sidesword.
See also Giacomo DiGrassi’s comments on body mechanics.
Thank you for your information. However, I am interested in the real thing...an authentic medieval sword or other weaponry.
My son has quite a collection of good quality reproduction swords. They are nice to look at but just don’t turn me on much.
Albion makes very good reproductions. They are a great bunch of guys, and I would agree that you will get your moneys worth buying from them. They also do a lot of fantasy stuff and one of their workers (can’t remember his name...) does very good quality helms. My son and I were graciously granted a factory tour last spring. You medieval enthusiasts would love these guys! They look like they just leapt out from medieval times... :)
If you get up near New Glarus, Wisconsin be sure to drop in...New Glarus is a great little town in it’s own right as well.
Oh, one last thing, for the interested, Albion does a lot of the movie swords...they have quite a list of movies they provided swords for. Some are big money movies.
bttt
I used to be a member of ARMA, it’s a great historic European martial arts org.
Maybe the best.
“European martial arts org”
On another forum there was a discussion if there was a medieval martial arts form. Is that what you are describing or is this organization just for weapon play? There is a huge pent-up demand for Christian/European based Martial Arts as oppose to the Taoic based Asian Martial Arts. Medieval soldiers must of have developed hand to hand combat skills just like the Eastern Asians.
Oh and thank you for the link. I was looking into taking up Fencing by summer time (after I start ballroom lessons), but I may look at this instead if they have a group in DFW.
Yep.
The DFW group is one of the best in the nation.
Please add me to your sword Pinglist.
Thank you.
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