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To: Non-Sequitur
The problem is whether or not the American Civil War was a civil war? Only in the broadest definition could it be considered one. In that definition, the American Revolutionary War would be classified as a civil war. Usually in a civil war you have at the minimum one faction trying to overthrow the government, but the South never wanted to overthrow the Union. The South wanted independence from the Union and to be permitted to form its own government. This is why it is nearly impossible when we start trying to compare the American Civil War with civil war in other countries to find examples in history. It is not a good analogy.
A better analogy is to look at independence or secessionist movements rather than civil wars. But in regards to the English Civil War, which was a genuine civil war, Parliament overthrew the monarchy; however, as soon as Cromwell died, the monarchy was reinstalled. I do not see the conflicts with either Ireland and Scotland as civil wars. They are closer to independence or secessionist movements, much like the American Revolutionary war. I have absolutely no idea how many Irish were killed in those wars. But at least 600,000 Americans died in the 1860’s and I am not certain if Ireland even had a population of 600,000 in the 1500’s.
The South has still not recovered from the affects of the Civil War. Reconstructionist treated the South far worse than the US treated either Germany or Japan after WWII. If the South had gotten half the economic support that the US has given Iraq, the South would be far stronger today than it is.
I understand that from your point that being assimilated back into the Union is a good thing; however, the South did not want to be reassimilated back into the Union, it wanted its independence from the Union. They were Confederate by choice, and Union by force. It would be similar to the colonists being reassimilated under British rule if the American Revolution had failed.
48 posted on 06/11/2009 11:52:44 AM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Nosterrex
I have absolutely no idea how many Irish were killed in those wars. But at least 600,000 Americans died in the 1860’s and I am not certain if Ireland even had a population of 600,000 in the 1500’s.

The Down Survey, conducted immediately after the Irish War, estimated 614,000 Irish dead, 40% of the total population. That doesn't count the 12,000 Irish sold into slavery in the West Indies.

For an example of how the British handled independence movements in the mid-19th Century, look at the Indian Mutiny and how that was put down. Mass executions, hundreds of thousands dead.

49 posted on 06/11/2009 12:11:48 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Nosterrex
The South has still not recovered from the affects of the Civil War.

How? Other than your damaged psyches and self-inflicted wounds like the legacy of Jim Crow, in what quantifiable sense is the south still suffering from a war that ended 144 years ago?

50 posted on 06/11/2009 12:23:04 PM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Nosterrex
The problem is whether or not the American Civil War was a civil war? Only in the broadest definition could it be considered one.

Civil war is generally considered to be a conflict between two parts of the same country. In that respect then civil war would be correct in 1861 and not in 1776 because the colonists were not strictly speaking a part of England.

Usually in a civil war you have at the minimum one faction trying to overthrow the government, but the South never wanted to overthrow the Union. The South wanted independence from the Union and to be permitted to form its own government.

Then rebellion would be accurate. Originally the conflict was originally titled the War of the Rebellion or War of Southern Rebellion. Civil war was actually a compromise that became popular around the turn of the century.

A better analogy is to look at independence or secessionist movements rather than civil wars.

Then by all means pick an independence or secessionist movement of the period and show me one where the losing side got off as easy as the South did.

I do not see the conflicts with either Ireland and Scotland as civil wars. They are closer to independence or secessionist movements, much like the American Revolutionary war. I have absolutely no idea how many Irish were killed in those wars. But at least 600,000 Americans died in the 1860’s and I am not certain if Ireland even had a population of 600,000 in the 1500’s.

OK, then if the Irish conflict of that period was something akin the the Southern rebellion then upwards of 40% of the population of Ireland died as a result of their secessionist movement. How does the South's losses compare to that?

The South has still not recovered from the affects of the Civil War.

Oh please!

Reconstructionist treated the South far worse than the US treated either Germany or Japan after WWII.

Now who's comparing apples and oranges?

I understand that from your point that being assimilated back into the Union is a good thing; however, the South did not want to be reassimilated back into the Union, it wanted its independence from the Union. They were Confederate by choice, and Union by force. It would be similar to the colonists being reassimilated under British rule if the American Revolution had failed.

And had the American Revolution failed, what do you suppose would have happened to the American leaders? Would John Adams lived to a peaceful old age in retirement? Would George Washington been a college president? Or would they and dozens of others wound up at the end of a rope?

53 posted on 06/11/2009 12:43:51 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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