Posted on 11/28/2009 2:11:52 AM PST by myknowledge
It's a sad reality of history that we just don't seem to have many wars in really nice places. I mean yes, the Japanese bombed Honolulu and the Nazis did a little street fighting in Paris but by and large wars tend to be fought in places with severely depressed real estate values. (One reason why some of us in California are rather nervous these days.)
But OK, here's a plan to get over the one gigabuck price tag for a new infantry weapon:
As I understand it, the M4 is a fine little carbine as long as you don't need to live with it in the dirt and mud for extended periods of time. Just make Class 3 licenses as simple and inexpensive to get as a C&R and sell the M4s to people through the CMP at a price comparable to that of the new wonder weapon that gets issued to the troops.
It is time for a new weapon system, not a repeat of something (the AK) that is over 70 years old.
I agree, but in the types of situations in which the M4 or M16 is being used, is the extra accuracy more important than the weapon working when it needs to work? Maybe it is time for the military to reassess its weapons needs for situations like these, even if it means using an old, but clearly effective, design.
Granted, I am a laymen when it comes to military things, but it just really angers me when I see our troops dying for such a stupid reason as the weapons not working when they need them to work. It just seems like this type of situation is completely preventable.
First, our military is one of the few to do such studies on effectiveness of its weapons.
You don't read the numerous reports of AK users running out of ammo because the system is essentially "spray and pray".
The opposing forces that deploy the AK do not track how many of their troops are killed because they could not hit the enemy before the enemy picked them off with their superior accuracy.
Yes, the M4 has failures, but in every war, the opposing troops have taken higher losses than our troops have taken. That does not mean we should settle when something superior is available, but it does not mean we should go backwards to an inferior design that has lost to our system in every war.
"The 416 looks like the M4, for the only thing that has changed is the gas system that automatically extracts the cartridge after the bullet has been fired, and loads the next round."
Ummmmm, isn't that what any "self-loading" rifle like the M-16 or M-4 already do? Pick up a fresh round from the magazine after each shot and load it into the chamber? The gas piston thing might be an improvement, but the rifle overall function isn't really changed, is it?
First, only certain forces are allowed to deviate from the M4 and those forces usually want to blend in with the crowd.
It does not mean the AK is a better choice than the M4.
Yeah, I’ve heard that accuracy complaint, but I wonder, mine appears to be accurate enough for the intentions. The chambering for 223 vs 5.56 it doesn’t seem to know about ... why should it care? Ruger marks their new SR 556 with both cartridges. So do a lot of the ARs I have looked at. I feed it mostly white box 223 ammo though, the rest are reloads.
It’s just a knock around defense gun. Plenty of police use it, it is handy light and simple. With a folding stock, very compact. When I bought mine it was cheap, now not so much so. But it’s advantage is it doesn’t look AR.
“Us civilians can always buy a Ruger mini-14. Mini-14, get it? M14 made small.”
Mini-14... The Ruger piece of junk. Sorry, as a civilian I don’t like settling for junk.
Well my junk is deadly ...
The reliability of the AK is well documented, but so is the fact that you can’t hit the broad side of a barn from the inside with it...
That's what she said...
Sorry, couldn't resist...
Simple is better ... And now the lovers of that crappy US Gun are finding direct gas tubes designs are better too. You have to wonder what took people so long to figure out the AR variants were so sucky -— LOL.
The Swiss have the SIG SG 550 family of rifles, based on the AK design but using 5.56 NATO ammo.
“Well my junk is deadly ...”
So is a plastic knife.
So is a plastic gun ... LOL
But my SST Mini-14 goes bang every time you pull the trigger.
“So is a plastic gun ... LOL
But my SST Mini-14 goes bang every time you pull the trigger.”
It’s not the “go bang” part, but the .223 chambering vs 5.56 and general low quality/accuracy coupled with Bill Ruger’s support of gun control. I’m glad you’re happy with your Mini. The AR is vastly superior to it in every way... for at least my purposes.
The 5.56 is a whole other problem, not related to the weapon itself.
Changing the weapon will be easy, changing caliber (which is nearly equally important) is an even greater problem due to our NATO allies.
And isn't that why they have different manufacturers? I find no problem with the chambering for 223, most new ARs are marked for both, and as to accuracy no complaints here.
However Bill Ruger did do the gun control thing, which wasn't very pretty. Now you can get Ruger factory mags and all manner of improvements.
I still think blowing hot gas and carbon into the rifle's action was dumb from the start. Garand had a much better design.
I admit, it used to be cheap, which was one of it's more endearing qualities. Now not so much so, but I have switched to 12 ga as my main defense gun.
“And isn’t that why they have different manufacturers? I find no problem with the chambering for 223, most new ARs are marked for both, and as to accuracy no complaints here.”
ARs are marked for both because it’s safe to shoot 223 in a 5.56 rifle, but not to do the opposite. NATO standards exceed SAAMI pressure limits.
The Mini-14 is, at best, a short range rifle.
“I still think blowing hot gas and carbon into the rifle’s action was dumb from the start. Garand had a much better design.”
Direct impingement can lead to better accuracy and, unless you are shooting poorly burning ammunition, it’s not THAT much carbon. Piston systems need cleaning too. I have to periodically clean the piston on my M14 with special tools (drill bits, actually).
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