Posted on 06/04/2010 2:30:34 PM PDT by nickcarraway
With all due respect, metmom, I think you are arguing something completely different than editor-surveyor. Unless I misinterpreted what he’s written, he would literally deny insulin to a diabetic (or at least spiritually advise the diabetic to forgo insulin). He was even opposed to acetaminophen since it was man made. That is definitely not an opinion founded in scripture.
In your case, you seem to be opposed simply to mixing the human genome with animals. As I wrote, I lack your certainty on where the dividing line is. It’s not that I’m playing the middle against both sides. I’m searching for sound doctrine based on scripture.
Let’s say a fellow Christian needs a liver transplant and he asks my advice. Whatever advice I give better be backed up by scripture (as scripture itself says). Would I first advise my friend to seek the Lord? YES. Most definitely. Maybe the transplant IS the answer to his prayers. Would that justify any means of obtaining a transplant, like taking it from a convicted prisoner (China)? No.
As far as growing that replacement liver in a pig, I’m just not sure at this point whether that’s an abomination or not.
sig226: “YOU don’t need it to survive. Plenty of others are not so fortunate.”
You have my sympathy. I don’t know of anything in scripture that even implies it’s sinful to take insulin. It doesn’t demonstrate a lack of faith to take it. editor-surveyor is correct about one thing. If you’re fixing your physical body without concern about your standing with Christ, you’re failing the most important test. (Not saying you aren’t spiritually sound). I’m just making the point that spiritual health is more important than physical health. That doesn’t mean you can’t have both.
//There is NO justification for going into this kind of territory//
NO there is not, but who is the master of deception, no need to answer back.
As usual, your opinions are fully anti-scriptural.
You continue to pick feel good ‘solutions’ to misperceived, or nonexistant problems.
Stating scripture puts no further burden than already existed. The Bible is a plain language handbook of life; ignore it at your own peril, but council others to ignore it at peril of damnation.
And enjoy your acetominifen; probably no other drug has taken as many lives unnecessarily.
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“ At what point does natural become unnatural? I suppose I’m allowed to chew the bark of a white willow. Ah, but what if I process it to increase its purity? Is that now stepping over the line? What if I mix it with other naturally occurring substances to make something new? Is THAT sinful?”
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An utter pile of straw!
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Could you be a bit more specific than writing that my opinions are “fully anti-scriptural?” Don’t you think your beliefs (concerning medicine) are similar to arguments in the early church over clean and unclean foods?
ROMANS 14:1-15 “1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died.”
Why would you look down on other Christians for using insulin, acetaminophen, ect.? If you believe you shouldn’t use certain “unclean” medicines, then by all means don’t use them, but don’t put that stumbling block in the way of others. Someone who uses insulin isn’t a lesser Christian for doing so, and even if you thought they were, aren’t you passing judgment on disputable matters by saying so?
I don't see how it would be an abomination. People are reacting to this as if some lab plans to grow baby heads on puppies. Such is the case only in bad horror movies. What this technology already does is allow labs to create vital medicines and treatments to prolong human life. Bone grafts are sterile chunks of bone from animals. These are used to repair trauma that otherwise would not heal.
Recombinant DNA takes cells and replaces the DNA to cause them to produce substances like insulin. This is the definition of a chimera. But cells aren't cute and can't be personified, so that's presumably okay. Messing with pigs and cats seems out of the question, but then the actual question is treated as though it doesn't matter.
What this technology can do is use an animal to grow human skin suitable for grafting to a burn patient. Not yet, but this is where they've been trying to go for the last twenty years. What it can do is produce blood for transfusion. It may produce organs, or parts of them, to replace those damaged by cancer, infection, or injury. If it's an abomination to do that, it must also be an abomination to graft grains to increase harvest yields, and that means that several people on this thread better stop eating bread.
Sanctity of life applies to the sick as well as the unborn. Isn’t it inconsistent for us to do everything in our power to protect the unborn while denying something as simple as acetaminophen to the sick?
Didn’t Christ state all law can be summed up by #1 loving God and #2 loving your neighbor? Isn’t healing your neighbor an act of love?
I do think there are limits here, but I’m trying to find a scriptural basis to say genetic engineering is wrong. So far, I haven’t found one.
If the only way that you can defend your position is to misrepresent the position of the other side, it shows you have nothing to stand on.
There's a world of difference between OTC medicine and other medical procedures which can be life saving, and combining DNA from humans and animals to create chimeras.
If you can't see the difference in that and equate the two, you display a level of blindness that is staggering.
Man was created in God's image, animals were not. God created plants and animals to reproduce after their own kind.
Subverting that plan for His world is asking for trouble to say the least. Satan tried to corrupt the human race genetically once and that resulted in the Flood to destroy those corrupted humans. Satan is trying again, and succeeding this time, finding no end to the supply of useful idiots who have been duped into thinking that they're accomplishing some good out of it through this messing with combining human and animal DNA.
God will not be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
We are sowing in the wind and we will reap in the whirlwind. Mankind does not have the wisdom or control to adequately deal with the results of what he is capable of doing. His ability to do has outstripped his ability to wisely use and this would backfire on us if God lets it go that long.
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear sister in Christ!
“Could you be a bit more specific than writing that my opinions are ‘fully anti-scriptural?’ “
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Try this: You counsel others to disregard the plain language of scripture in favor of the “wisdom of men” that God’s word says is foolishness.
The rest of your points are strawmen, since they are miles away from the issue under discussion. Real science (as opposed to commercial ‘science’ from poisonous drug manufacturers) has shown that all non-natural substances are harmful to life. This is in keeping with God’s word, so the only ones denying anyone any opportunity for healing are the drug vendors and prescribers.
Drugs are the big lie. Statins are known to cause heart attacks, yet are prescribed to ‘prevent’ them? Excessive insulin has been shown to be a cause of the insulin insensitivity that leads to type II diabetes, yet it gets prescribed to ‘control’ it?
Are you shooting off on things that you don’t understand?
The only way to health is the way given to us in God’s word.
Why don’t you tell us your real agenda?
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“Mankind does not have the wisdom or control to adequately deal with the results of what he is capable of doing.”
Well said, and should be repeated over and again as the present conditions so clearly testify.
“Mankind does not have the wisdom or control to adequately deal with the results of what he is capable of doing.”
As a youngster I recall a writer putting it thus: Mankind tries to exercise godlike powers with far less than God like wisdom.
I’m not misrepresenting the “other” side, metmom. Are you even reading the other comments in this thread? editor-surveyor implied it’s morally wrong to use acetaminophen, a view that goes well beyond your opinion of genetic engineering. First, let’s consider editor-surveyor’s views:
I consider a requirement to forgo man-made medicines a very serious issue, because it puts an unnecessary burden on both believers and unbelievers. If diabetic unbelievers are told they have to give up insulin to be Christians, that’s a terrible (not scriptural) burden that will likely drive them away. If believers are told their faith is weak for taking insulin, it’s an unrighteous and burdensome judgment on them (as I showed with scripture).
Now let’s discuss your claim that genetic engineering, mixing small parts of human genes with animals, is evil. I provided numerous scriptures to support the view that helping one’s neighbor is good. I also quoted scripture that says man has dominion over plants and animals. What is dominion if not control?
I have repeatedly asked for you to prove your point of view with scripture. I’m just supposed to take it on your word (not God’s) that mixing genes is evil? THAT itself is not scriptural, because scripture requires us to test our beliefs. The Bible is THE measure we must use to determine if doctrine is sound or not. (I posted scripture to prove this point).
You mention Genesis, but I provided the pertinent quotes from Genesis. Show me where it says God flooded the earth because of “gene mixing.” It’s not there. As I explained, God specifically said (in Genesis) that He was flooding the earth because, and I quote...
GENESIS 6:5 “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Genesis 6 mentions the sons of God, but it does not say God destroyed the earth because the sons of God mated with the daughters of men. Even if it DID say the flood was because of them mating (which is does NOT), that’s still not the same thing as genetic engineering. Note the sons of God and the daughters of men were genetically compatible. They had children.
Are you basing your views entirely on Genesis 6? If not, where else does it say or imply it’s morally wrong to use pigs to produce insulin for humans? If I was doing what you are doing, making claims without scriptural basis, I would expect you to challenge me to prove it in the Word. Well?
“Mankind does not have the wisdom or control to adequately deal with the results of what he is capable of doing.”
You could say the exact same thing about virtually everything man does, from the dawn of time. It doesn’t prove doing those things is evil.
editor-surveyor: “You counsel others to disregard the plain language of scripture in favor of the “wisdom of men” that God’s word says is foolishness.”
You show me where the Bible states a person can’t take insulin or any other man-made medicine in “plain language.” It’s not a salvation issue, but it’s an important one. If you are adding legalese to the faith that is not there, then you are not following scripture yourself. Again, show me in “plain language” where is says a person must not use man-made medicine.
editor-surveyor: “Why don’t you tell us your real agenda?”
My real agenda is following sound doctrine as guided by the Holy Spirit and proven by the Word. I’m opposed to legalese Christianity which is not scriptural and drives people away from the faith.
It’s not a statement of what is evil or not, it’s a statement of prudence since it is outcomes that we are concerned with. Burning the dead litter from a field isn’t necessarily evil but what if in doing so one burns their own house and that of a neighbor?
And yes, that could be said about many of man’s activities which should tend a less arrogant and short sighted attitude but that is the exception and not the rule.
The fields are becoming smaller and the fires larger.
Fair enough. I definitely agree that man should approach any new technology with careful consideration based on scripture. My concern in this thread isn’t so much metmom’s opinion that gene mixing is evil, although I’d like to know where that view is supported in scripture.
What really concerns me is editor-surveyor’s position. Take insulin for example. If I tell an unbelieving diabetic he needs to give up insulin to be right with Christ, that’s not Biblical and would likely drive him away. If I said the same thing to a Christian, I could hinder his walk with Christ. Unless using medicine is a salvation issue, placing unnecessary requirements on fellow believers is a definite no no!
Is gene mixing wrong? What sort of gene mixing are we talking about? Producing triticale? Or producing triple heads?
Though the Scriptures give man a mastery over the animals, it not open ended so again prudence and caution are called for lest the good pursued be along an evil path.
Using the example of insulin, I can see no Scriptural principle that would lead me to think its production is wrong. That doesn't make it right but it does mean it is an area left to my own conscience, which I shall answer for, good or ill.
Interesting word “chimera.” It has three meanings. Your use hit on all three.
There are two issues involved in this topic: what we can do; what we should do. Science speaks to us on the first issue. Necessarily it must remain mute on the latter, but, we may expect a good deal of switching back and forth from one issue to the other, as it suits convenience and purpose, so the first question has to be, which controls. The answer must be, what we should do.
“God will not be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.”
True. And, we must suspect what a man sows will not be confined simply to the readily seen. In a world turning increasingly socialist, human sacrifice lurks always in the shadows, and will make its presence felt in unexpected ways.
Thanks, mom for the beep.
All they have it seems is circular reasoning and strwmen.
Stan was and always will be the master of deception.
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