Posted on 10/22/2010 8:10:34 PM PDT by Chet 99
“Oh I don’t. The pit bull ranges from 40lbs to 123lbs of sheer terrorizing fighting dog muscle and unpredictable rage. “>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where are you getting your information??? They should be 35 to 60 pounds. A dog over 80 pounds cannot be classified as a pit bull any more than a 40 pound dog can be classified as a chihuahua.
“It’s the only dog known to kill more adults in their prime than children.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
More children are killed every year by far (the JAVMA study shows 79% of all fatalities are children 12 and younger, and the largest percentage of those are children under a year of age).
They are also more often the victims of nasty bites. If you had read any of the studies instead of relying on dogsb*te for your info, you would know that. Why do you insist on making yourself look bad by immediately accepting the stuff you are seeing on that site? Why do you trust it so much? Is it the pretty pictures?
I am sorry that the dachshund fatalities make you laugh. I guess a pomeranian or a westie killing an infant would be hilarious to you, wouldn’t it? That is part of the problem, now, isn’t it? People like you dismissing the actions of “friendly” looking dogs while demonizing “mean” looking dogs? Are you the same type of person that makes excuses when your poodle growls at the mailman? Fact is, small dogs do take lives, and dismissing these tragedies as freak accidents is no better than allowing a known dangerous dog to stay alive. If it bites, it dies. There should be no exceptions.
I am not your enemy. I don’t know why you take it so personally when I give you other information. I am trying to show you that regardless of the information on her site, you should not just take what is written there as truth. Read the studies she has posted there, and make up your own mind. You aren’t doing yourself any favors by continuing to support that site. If you read the studies in their entirety, from that site, you will see what I mean. She is pulling your leg. Let someone else tell you, if I am the reason you are holding on to this.
It seems to me that some people don’t use common sense
in their choice of pets,,,
Some things you just cannot walk down the street,,,
“Mike” comes to mind,,,
That’s the LSU tiger,,,
He had 6 guys holding on to his “leash” at football games,,,
Not anymore,,,
From what I heard he dragged them around on the field at
the college before a game last year,,,IIRC,,,
Some critters are best kept in cages...
No pit bulls over 80lbs? Where do you get your lies?
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/males.html
Note ‘Hercules’ near the bottom of the page tips the scales at 123lbs! Hooray! A killing animal that weighs 123lbs! But the page assures the reader that others that are young are going to be HUGE so maybe the record won’t stand long!
http://www.thebullyhouse.com/breedingsfor2010/kingkongkora.html
Note that King Kong is only 120lbs.
Hey I’m learning alot on this site. Did you know they hold contests for pit bulls to see how much weight they can pull? A dog that pulls 12 times his body weight is considered a ‘working’ dog, 18 times his body weight earns the title ‘excellent’ and 23 times his body weight is considered ‘superior’. Wow...just...wow...the thought of an 80lb pit bull bred to kill ‘calmly’ and without warning attacking you...even the lowest ‘working’ dog able to pull about a thousand pounds. That’s got to be a strength advantage...hey...I wonder...how much can a dachshund pull????
Oh I just clicked my way through pages and pages of pit bull breeders websites with all of the breeding males starting at 85 lbs and up. Here’s another sample but I am not going to waste my time pasting them all.
http://www.tombstonepits.com/males.php
Your assertion that a pit bull can’t be over 80lbs is another lie. One more intentional lie. And I think it’s also a distraction from the fact that because pits are genetically prone to killing/maiming, crosses with pits are also likely to have the same defective genetic material for killing/maiming. That’s why pit owners always want to limit the discussion and not discuss pit crosses.
Pretty much everything you say is propaganda except when you slipped up and admitted that break sticks can be used on pit bulls because they are calm when they have their jaws clamped down hard on a the neck of dog or human and because they are perfectly calm as they refuse the owners command to stop.
I laugh at your doxie red herring because your attempt to distort the discussion befits the behavior of a child saying “Jimmy did it too!” I am the one that cares about human fatalities due to dog bites, not you. The ONLY reason you keep bringing doxies up is because you cannot deny the pit bull body/maiming count documented on dogsbite.com. The faces missing, arms chewed off, adults and children killed etc. - are documented with names, dates, locations, links to news articles and videos. This is the key strategy of dogmen, pit bull breeders, and their supporters - cloud the water by saying ‘other dogs bite - shall we ban all dogs?’ when the evidence that pits are responsible for 54% of human fatalities per year sits there staring them in the face. The ghastly photograph of a human lower arm with 95% of the human flesh stripped away to reveal two white bones is an image I’ll not soon forget and no, this was not done by a llasa apsos - it was done by a pit. You will continue to scream and scream insults and lies as long as decent people point to the names, dates, locations, and details of documented pit bull fatalities and maimings which result in officers shooting about a pit bull per day.
This malevolent breed should not have been developed, should not be continued, can never be trusted. You can shovel compost worthy worthless studies and websites all you want - all it proves is there’s big money in dog fighting so amoral pit bull lovers are willing to spend time and money putting together studies to use in court to defend inevitable efforts to ban these mutants.
You claim that I base my opinions on one website. You are lying. I watched many many video accounts and some actual dog attacks, I read other websites including one that has undertaken the task of recording the detailed events of pit bull attacks by state so I looked up my state and read every account for about a nine month period. I’ve gone to websites of foreign countries who now have breed specific laws banning or controlling pit bulls along with some other dangerous breeds. 21 countries have breed specific laws that target pit bulls and some other vicious breeds and parts of 9 more countries also have such laws. (pit bulls were always on the top of the list and most links feature a picture of a pit):
1. Argentina: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.portalba.com.ar/noticia.php%3FidS%3D7%26idN%3D7655&ei=0YVkS_O5JofWNbqFoP8G&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CBIQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3DOficial%2Bla%2BLey%2B14.107%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DOhy
2: Bavaria: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32263725/Bavaria-Forbids-Pit-Bulls-and-Other-Fighting-Breeds
3: Bermuda: http://www.gov.bm/portal/server.pt?open=512&objID=207&&PageID=213&mode=2&in_hi_userid=2&cached=true
4. Denmark: http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/denmark-bans-more-dangerous-dog-breeds-20100701-zqdv.html
5. Ecuador: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=agi79Lofn10E&refer=latin_america
6. France: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/939817021.html?dids=939817021:939817021&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Dec+11%2C+2005&author=Samantha+Bonar&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=With+best+friends+like+these+...&pqatl=google
Hey that link has an excellent quote in the LA Times:
“The CDC says pit bulls and Rottweilers kill more humans than any other breed. In the United States, pit bulls make up 3% of the overall dog population but are responsible for more than 50% of serious attacks. Rottweilers have become the nation’s deadliest dog breed, surpassing pit bulls, according to a 2000 study by the American Veterinary Medical Assn” Note that the intention of the laws in France and the UK, the intention is to eliminate the breed by preventing reproduction and importation. Problem solved!
8: Italy: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/article900674.ece
Hey Italy is an example of going overboard. Although I agree that any individual dog that kills should be euthanized - Italy seems to be banning dog breeds by single death incident.
9: New Zeeland: http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/wpg_URL/Resource-material-Dog-Control-Key-Facts?OpenDocument#six
10: Norway: http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20030618&slug=matt18
Hey this has a good quote (but no mention of dachshund’s!):
A study in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association shows that over 20 years, pit bulls lead in human dog-bite-related fatalities for which breed was reported. They’re followed at some distance by Rottweilers, then German Shepherds and Huskies.
According to the Centers for Disease Control, pit bulls are also among the breeds that bite most often. About 800,000 of the estimated 4.7 million annual U.S. dog bites require medical treatment. Insurance claims total $1 billion a year.
Definitions of pit bulls include American Pit Bull Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers and mixes including those breeds.
12. Puerto Rico: http://ca2pr.com/2007/12/02/puerto-rico-and-pitbulls/
13. Romania: Same link as norway
16. Turkey: http://www.haytap.org/index.php/20070528133/mevzuat/animal-protection-bill-law-no-5199
17. United Kingdom: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/65/section/1
18. UAE: http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/general/dog-walking-ban-is-bone-of-contention-for-owners-1.123061
19. Venezula: http://www.scribd.com/doc/33555593/Venezuela-Prohibits-Pit-Bull-Ownership-after-2014
20. Guyana:
21. St. Kitts and Nevis:
Portions of the following countries also have breed specific laws to control or ban pits: Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Germany, Ireland, and Japan. Oh and let’s not forget the US!
So 21 countries ban or control pit bulls because of the death and destruction these animals cause and then portions of another 8 countries do so and this isn’t even a complete list - just what is easily known. That makes 29 countries acknowledging the damaging nature of pit bulls and YOU want to portray me as basing my opinion on pit bulls strictly on one website.
I am glad you don’t consider me your enemy because I’ve heard you call your enemy a ‘crack head’, imply that she is mental ill, say that she is probably a criminal, and complain that she can’t keep her mouth shut along with other ad hominem attacks. But you never were able to legitimately refute the factual information she prints on her website (names, dates, geographic locations, links to news articles and videos detailing the carnage pit bulls cause) so name calling is all you have. You do not figure into my reasoning because you are an amoral liar - I never took what you said seriously. How could I when you point at invalid, worthless ‘studies’ and hope I’ll read websites also read by pit bull fighters and fighting pit bull breeders - I don’t associate with that kind of riff raff.
I’ve already posted info twice on the deceptive naming of the dogs - it’s tedious to discuss your lies over and over again. The reason why legitimate studies lump this type of dog into ‘pit bull type’ is that pit bull breeders and owners have been so deceptive in concealing the breed that the inclusive term was developed to indicate lineage.
* In 1935, the American Kennel Club (AKC) agreed to register pit bull dogs, but only under the name Staffordshire terrier. This was done to distance the breed from its continued use in dogfighting. Thus, the pit bull and the Staffordshire terrier was one in the same, yet held two different names.2
* In 1972, the AKC renamed the breed to the American Staffordshire terrier. Though the American Staffordshire terrier is by definition a pit bull, many owners claim they are different breeds and shelters adopt out pit bulls under the Staffordshire name to fool unsuspecting members of the public.3
* In 1996, the San Francisco Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals renamed pit bulls to “St. Francis Terriers.” The hope was to make the breed more adoptable. After much screening, about 60 pit bulls were placed. The program was suspended after several of the re-dubbed dogs killed cats.4
* In 2004, while serving as the director of New York City Animal Care and Control, Ed Boks tried to rename pit bulls to “New Yorkies” also in hopes of making the breed more adoptable. Boks’ idea failed, as did his tenure in New York City, which only lasted from 2003-2005.5
* Meanwhile, dogfighters historically and presently refer to pit bulls as “bulldogs.” The American bulldog, which is unrecognized by the AKC, was only recognized by the United Kennel Club (UKC) in 1999.6 Furthermore, the breed was called the “American pit bulldog” up until the 1970s.
I am glad you don’t consider me your enemy because I’ve heard you call your enemy a ‘crack head’, imply that she is mental ill, say that she is probably a criminal, and complain that she can’t keep her mouth shut along with other ad hominem attacks. But you never were able to legitimately refute the factual information she prints on her website (names, dates, geographic locations, links to news articles and videos detailing the carnage pit bulls cause) so name calling is all you have. You do not figure into my reasoning because you are an amoral liar - I never took what you said seriously. You point at baseless studies and hope I’ll read websites also read by pit bull fighters and fighting pit bull breeders - I don’t associate with that kind of riff raff.
I begin to see that with some people, they are not lacking in common sense, they are plain old fashioned evil.
‘Mike’ seems to have been taken out of his natural element and treated like a toy among humans - I agree with you that this is a stellar instance where common sense is absent.
But what about people who intentionally lie to you about the breed of their dog, who carry a bite stick in their pocket but deny the animal is potentially dangerous and refuse to put a muzzle on it because bystanders will get the ‘wrong idea’. What about those who intentionally wage a disinformation campaign while launching ad hominem attacks when they can’t refute the facts that others post. At the bottom of all this seems to be a marked selfish me-first attitude that can lie without a conscience interrupting it or slowing it down.
I can’t tell you how many attack reports I read where the pit bull owner fled or lied to escape financial and legal responsibility. My favorite is when a man saw a woman backing her car away from a mauling because it was her dog causing the damage. The man pulled the car door open and asked “Don’t you think you should get out of the car and handle your responsibilities?”. She pulled the door closed and drove off but not before he used his cell phone to photograph her license plate and her behind the wheel. BUSTED! The worst might be the pit bull owner who drove off and left a child bleeding in the street.
In all my reading there is an oddness, a strange persistence and overconfidence, a lack of empathy and a refusal to accept reality and responsibility on the part of the pit bull owners. At long last - I see that the owners ‘match’ the pit bulls rather well, with few exceptions.
I see that I have, a few times on this thread, mispelled a useful website.
DOGSBITE.ORG
Pro-pitbull lobby types have bought up the domains around this name so if you type one letter wrong in the name (or use .com by mistake)- you are treated to a competing website. Sometimes I have to type the name a few times just to get to Dogsbite.org because anything else redirects to a few select sites. You’ll know you are at Dogsbite.org when you find documented information and quotes from pit bull attack witnesses and survivors and some heart breaking photos of children with maimed faces. The other sites try to bury the ‘unpleasant’ truth about this breed.
How could anybody be that damned stooopid,,,
As I have posted before we have a pit puppy mill next door.
The house went Section 8,,,
We got the dope dealing shut down for the most part,,,
The thug was jailed for 6 mo. last year,,,(crack),,,
At one time they had over 30 damn pits IN THE HOUSE!!!
7 more out back,,,
The local animal control hauled 3 or 4 off and put them down
because the limit is 4 ,,,
One of them has charged me and our yorkie twice,,,
Kids down range the first time , darkness the second,,,
I only walk him out back now with a .44 S&W on my hip,,,
After the thug threatened my life I went to walk “Harley”,,,
HarleyMama got into it,,,
Thug was runnin’ his mouth at me when she racked the bolt
on my Model 11 Rem.
He ran in the house Bug-eyed,,,
That woman is a direct descendant of John Westly Hardin,,,
First of all, you are looking at sites breeding “bully pits” which are dogs so far out of standard that they can’t be called American Pit Bull Terriers anymore. There is a segment of the population that has started breeding a new type of dog and they want purebred recognition. The dogs look like pit bulls but are heavier, and many suffer from dwarfism, which is an unfortunate trait they are purposefully including, much like corgis and basset hounds. Just because some thug calls them pit bulls doesn’t mean they fit into that category. Again, the dogs are way over the acceptable weight, they are inbred to the point of being extremely unhealthy, and they are not proportional. Not the same thing.
Taken directly from the AKC website:
“Height and weight should be in proportion. A height of about 18 to 19 inches at shoulders for the male and 17 to 18 inches for the female is to be considered preferable.”
If a dog is this height and proportional, it will not weigh that much. They are a medium sized breed, not a large breed or giant. Anyone breeding out of this standard is firstly not a responsible breeder, second, not breeding the standard (which means most likely they are breeding for size or color and NOT temperament), and intentionally allowing others to believe those are good representations of the breed. If an out of standard, ill-bred dog is what you are basing your opinion on, then I agree. Get rid of the badly-bred dogs and you will be left with the medium sized dogs that have less potential for dangerousness because they are smaller. That doesn’t mean they are safe, as no dog is completely safe, not even precious labs.
I did not make a mistake by mentioning break sticks. I am aware that the ignorant may see that fact in a bad light, but I don’t care. It wasn’t a slip up. Unlike some, I am not trying to hide any aspects of the breed and its capabilities. I am simply addressing the lack of rationality in dealing with the misinformation being spread, panic, and downright stupidity of some that refuse to do anything but repeat what other misinformed people say.
As for your countries with BSL, you forget that just because someone else is doing it, doesn’t mean it’s right. There are many places that have repealed BSL, including cities in our country, such as Toledo, Ohio, Topeka, Kansas, Putnam County, West Virginia, Streater, Illinois, Oak Harbor, Washington, Greenwood, Missouri, and Westland, MI.
Other places outside the U.S. include Puerto Rico and Italy (I think your info might be outdated, as Puerto Rico repealed their breed-specific wording in their dog legislation this year, and Italy did in 2009), Scotland, the Netherlands, and Delta, British Colombia (in the process of removing breeds from their dangerous dog legislation).
Why do you think they are repealing bans? The majority of these places cite the ineffectiveness of breed bans as the reason. They do not reduce attacks, but DO reduce attacks by the targeted breeds. The overall serious attack numbers do not decline, and in some instances, they have increased. There have been several articles regarding the UK’s desire to repeal their bsl, as it has been in place for years, but their attacks have increased dramatically. They have actually managed to make things worse by demonizing a breed of dog, making it the ultimate desirable accessory to thugs and criminals there, and increasing dog fighting activity to the point that witnesses have seen dogs fighting at public parks in the middle of the day.
As for the quote from the CDC regarding pit bull-types being 3% of the dog population, that number is off, which is something the authors did mention. There are over two hundred seventy five thousand registered just with the UKC (this number comes from a few years ago, as they no longer give out that information), which registers far less than the ADBA. The AKC only registers American Staffordshire Terriers, and they are by far the least popular type seen. The authors of the study mentioned that they used registration and city licensing numbers to get that total, and I know they mentioned that there is no accurate way of determining the population at any given time, considering the amount of people that do not register their dogs or license them.
Shelter estimates have the breed at 7 to 10 million. They represent 60% of all dogs, large and small, in large city shelters, and are suffering from extreme popularity with breeders, young people, criminals, professionals, and everything in between. In many areas, they are more common than labs. To say that they represent 3% now would be ridiculous, as shelters tend to represent actual populations pretty accurately. I remember when those Dalmatian movies came out, we were getting lots of dals dropped off, and many had to be euthanized. Some were deaf, lots had temperament issues, but most were simply untrained, unsocialized bundles of nerves that were unadoptable.
Also, notice in the CDC study that they use the term “pit bull-type”, not specific breeds. This is due to witnesses and media not correctly identifying breeds (they are not dog breed experts!), and the fact that at least 13 different pure breeds are lumped into the pit bull category by uneducated people. So, any dog that resembles a pit bull to any person is in this group. No one goes around and checks to see if the dogs involved in attacks are papered, and they definitely don’t DNA test them (DNA testing for breed is a joke anyway). If there were a way to go back through all of the stories and examine each dog, I am certain there would be quite a bit of mistakes caught. The National Canine Research Council has a wonderful page about this, showing pictures of dogs that have been misidentified as pit bulls in news stories. One was a yellow lab, very obviously pure, but how would a reporter know that? They went to school for journalism.
My husband made this identity mistake also. He was attacked by a dog when he was a child. He was trying to reach into the dog’s bowl and it bit him in the face, giving him a scar that kind of looks like a dimple. He told me when we met that the dog was a pit bull, and it belonged to a friend of his father. He didn’t have anything against the breed, and he acknowledged that he was in the wrong for messing with the dog while it was eating. One day, I bought a dog breed book, and we were paging through when he stopped me and pointed to a dog and told me it looked exactly like the one that bit him. It was not a pit bull, didn’t even come from the same general history, outweighed pit bulls by quite a bit, and was a pure breed. At this time, we were rescuing dogs, and he had experience with lots of pit bulls, but he was simply clueless. This appears to be the average person’s experience. Unless you are into dogs, you may not know the difference between a Rottie and a Dobie, or a Golden Retriever and a Yellow Lab. People coming into the shelter are constantly mixing those two up....don’t know why it’s so hard for them to see the difference, but I live dogs, and I couldn’t identify the difference between a 747 and a 757, having flown dozens of times in my life.
You mentioned that pit bulls are part of a group of dogs that bite most often. This is true. But do you know what the other breeds are? Labs top the list in many areas, followed by German Shepherds in many places, and they both compete with pit bulls on this. They compete in popularity also, so there’s no question that these breeds would be involved in a higher incidence of bites. If pit bulls were rare, I could see this being an issue, but for as popular as they are, it is proportional.
This brings up another point I forgot to address before. There are millions of these dogs in this country. Many are abused, chained up, or left to run loose and do whatever they want. Some are fought, some are bred, some are responsibly owned, although I think that good owners are the minority here. Why is it that with so many people getting the breed for the wrong reasons, so many people failing the dogs in socialization, training, safe keeping, even medical care, the breed has not increased the average for fatalities by a huge margin? Shouldn’t fatalities be in the hundreds if there are millions of poorly-bred, made-to-be-vicious dogs running loose in the streets? It’s a testament to the fact that dogs are as individual as people are.
There are lots of dogs coming into rescue that have been beaten and abused, yet they trust people completely. There are also dogs coming in that were treated like normal dogs, but are still not safe. This is the same thing seen with dog fighters. Many “dogmen” have said that some of the best fighters came from parents that were worthless at it, and vice versa. They also say that it requires quite a bit of training and conditioning to get a successful fighting dog, contrary to the belief that they are simply born ready for it. Sure, they can be dog aggressive (I have seen some that are and some that are not in all breeds), but for them to want to fight for hours without encouragement until one dies is not something that can be bred into it. It must be trained into it, and reinforced while in the ring, much like a boxing coach shouts at his fighter during a fight. None of those dogs are lounging on the couch in between fights. They are getting pumped full of chemicals to give them strength and bulk, tortured with the constant threat of being attacked, prodded, teased with food or other animals, and worked to keep their aggression strong. If this is what it takes to keep a pit bull wanting to fight, I am sure the majority of the population is not accidentally doing this.
The worst thing is, when there are dog fighting busts, some of the dogs coming in (which are generally small by the way, maxing out at 60 in most cases I have seen- bigger dogs don’t have enough wind to make a fight interesting to these cretins) are friendly, submissive, trusting dogs that just don’t want to be left alone. They aren’t straining to attack the vets or the shelter workers. They are tripping over themselves with joy because they are getting attention that doesn’t involve pain.
As for your comments about me being a liar, you are off your rocker. I have been trying to get you to read the same studies you have been misquoting, so don’t tell me I got my information from dog fighting sites. I work very hard to help put dog fighters away. I am the one that has to clean up their mess. I would never associate with someone that thinks dog fighting is good. You claim my studies are worthless, yet you have been using them in your arguments! If you would have just checked them out, you would have seen they are the same as what is on dogsb*te. I just bothered to read them all the way through instead of looking for single quotes. If the authors had been able to sum up their results with a single quote, that’s all that they would have published. Not reading the whole thing means you are not getting the point of it.
As for your claim that the AKC had tried to deceive people by renaming the breed, again this is wrong. They simply added “American” onto the name to differentiate between two breeds. They weren’t trying to hide anything. They wanted a breed of dog they could use in shows, a dog that was not a fighter, and that is why the Am Staffs do tend to look different than say, the ADBA American Pit Bull Terriers. They are not working dogs, just show dogs.
Shelters began trying to rename the breed so that they could attract a better type of owner, not to hide what the dogs are. If you are going to adopt a dog, you SHOULD have already done some research on what you like, what works for you, and what you want to stay away from. If people are that easily fooled when entering a shelter, perhaps a stuffed animal would suit them best.
Oh yes, and weight pull is done by several breeds. It isn’t just a pit bull thing. I know lots of people get huskies, malamutes, st. bernards, even small dogs into it because it’s a good way to bond with your dog, give it great exercise, and do something constructive. It’s just another dog sport gaining in popularity, like flyball or agility. I know a lot of people start their dogs off too young, and it is not for every dog, but the ones that like doing it have a blast. I don’t see why involving a pit bull in something constructive like that is a bad thing. And for the record, I have seen a dachshund pull. Just one. It was fantastic.
What some here may not be aware of is that dogsb*te has been mentioned time and time again on this very site, always regarding the shady tactics used to misinform people by manipulating the results of studies, only reporting dog attacks that support their claims, and requiring money just to send them a message they will not publish (if it goes against their claims). This is nothing new. I don’t know why every so often someone new to the issue comes along, citing this website as a great public service, not even bothering to read the countless articles written regarding the lies, bias, and hate they have been proven to display. Why is it so hard to see through the feigned concern to the truth?
That site does not have your best interests at heart. If they did, they would have no problem addressing the issue of ALL dog attacks and fatalities, and they would not feel the need to misquote studies, hide comments written by others with conflicting yet factual information, or try to take service dogs away from people based on what they look like.
This is not the voice of reason. This is a site created by a woman who has admitted to being mentally unstable, directly involving her ability to make sound judgments, who has been sued because of her inflammatory, false, hurtful remarks regarding someone involved in dog rescue and therapy work with pit bulls, and who has LIED to everyone by using the name “bitbypit” a full year before she was attacked (which is interesting in itself and speaks volumes about this person’s issues), implying that she may have been planning this business venture all along.
If you check the site out, remember that the studies posted there are not being correctly represented, and anyone interested in the results should read the studies in their entirety. Also, there is one study on the site that is in support of the site’s agenda (Merritt-Clifton), but has been dismissed by experts as biased, intentionally misleading (he left out many serious attacks made by dogs that are considered “friendly” breeds and refuses to correct the mistakes made), full of errors involving many breeds, their names, history, and even their physical characteristics (pit bulls do not have customarily docked tails, Queensland Heeler and Blue Heeler are the same breed, etc.), so it’s better suited for entertainment purposes rather than a meaningful, carefully-executed study.
Here is a link for anyone that is interested in reading a little more about this issue:
Here is a more recent story:
http://btoellner.typepad.com/kcdogblog/2010/03/the-truth-behind-dogsbiteorg.html
You continue to lie. Making up propaganda is less time consuming for you than the time it takes for me to go and fetch links.
Oh I can see why pit bull owners are desperate to falsely portray those monster pit bulls I linked to as ‘a different breed’. I really do. I guess you’ll want to use this link right away to go tell the breeder that the dog they specifically say is a pit bull is not a pit bull!
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/males.html
HOW CAN YOU LIE SO FREELY?!!! My conscience would not let me but it flows like water from you.
“Just because some thug calls them pit bulls doesn’t mean they fit into that category.” And just because a liar like you claims they are not doesn’t make it so. THIS is why 30 (probably more) countries have laws on the books against these animals. The people who support the breed lie and distort so freely. That’s a real problem with protecting the public - a pit bull owner will look you in the eye and ridicule you for ‘thinking’ that their pit bull is a pit bull. And since these mutants run free so often (14 times the escape rate as other dogs - pit bull sites joke that they are Houdinis) then they cross breed with other animals. So you get a black lab crossed with a pit bull and an owner who lies or one who doesn’t realize their dog is a pit bull cross. Then the black lab/pit cross attacks someone - and pit bull defenders say LOOK! LOOK! A BLACK LAB BIT SOMEONE! Those monster genetics are out there and even after pit bulls are banned - the community continues to suffer with their genetic legacy.
Seriously - look at the link I posted for raisingcainkennels.com
THOSE ARE OBVIOUSLY PIT BULLS. THE BREEDER SAYS THEIR PIT BULLS. But, without a conscience - you’re fine lying, lying, lying.
“I am not trying to hide any aspects of the breed and its capabilities.” Ok, that’s another of your lies.
“Get rid of the badly-bred dogs and you will be left with the medium sized dogs that have less potential for dangerousness because they are smaller.” This is another lie but with a distortion twist and a slip-up half gainer wherein you admit the dogs are dangerous. Oh with ‘lie cherry on top’.
The break stick issue is a flag for your immorality. You choose to defend dogs that require ‘responsible’ owners to carry a pry bar to leverage open their mouths when they ‘calmly’ bite down and hold the throat of animals or humans. Or you dont carry a stick knowing that the animal will bite down and hold when it attacks. Oh and you claim an animal that requires a bite stick is a service animal so it looks like you think the disabled don’t have challenges in life and should try fighting off a dog that is responsible for 54% of dog attack fatalities.
Why do I think they are repealing bans? Because the pit bull fight industry (yup - these dogs are still bred for fighting and this illegal, disgusting activity is actually more popular today) mounts legal challenge after legal challenge and as illegal fighting and drugs are profitable, they have the money to do it, endlessly. They don’t care about the body count. And there are all those pit bull crossbreeds left behind to kill and maim people. And people like you point to websites with obvious pit bulls and lie about the breed identity.
“Also, notice in the CDC study that they use the term “pit bull-type”, not specific breeds. This is due to witnesses and media not correctly identifying breeds (they are not dog breed experts!)” Ok that’s a favorite lie of yours. Because people like you lie about the dog breed identity - like you did again in your prior post, the CDC has no choice but to say ‘pit bull type’ and that is an attempt to capture the genetic malevolence passed to crossed breeds as well. I have already posted the way that pit bull lovers have changed the name through AKC to conceal identity to I’ll wait to my next post to post it again.
C’mon admit you were intentionally lying again. Just once tell the truth. Look at the pics again, yes those pics of pit bulls that a) look like pit bulls b) are identified by the breeder as pit bulls and c) are in fact pit bulls and just once tell the truth, Liar.
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/males.html
Did you not have any money to send? Is that why you have complained about 5 times that the owner of
DOGSBITE.ORG
does not answer questions unless you send her money. I understand why she does not answer questiosn without sending money - it’s because people like you will send pages and pages of false information and demand that she respond in detail. It’s very time consuming to refute your distortions and lies - I should know, I’ve been doing it for days.
You insist that no website focus on any one point of view -well then I guess you believe FR ‘doesn’t have your best interest at heart’ because FR works from a pro conservative point of view. You are so desperate to dilute the topic with other dog species because the moment someone shines a light on pit bulls, its and ugly, bloody picture.
You lie all the time and then you accuse the other website of lying ‘like it’s a bad thing’?
You’re afraid that, after maligning the character of the website owner, people will still go there so you say that the studies are biased and misinterpreted - THIS from you who wants us to believe the study you feel is accurate - you know, the one that said DASCHUNDS and LLASA APSOS have a more severe bite than pit bulls!!!!?????
Then you helpfully link to pro pit bull propaganda. HEY THANKS.
But, back to your most obvious, laughable lie.
I posted this link to pit bulls to prove you were lying about pit bull weight (oh and I succeeded in verifying that you lied about weight). Here’s the link:
http://www.raisingcainkennels.com/history.html
You had the conscience free gall, typically of pit bull supporters, to lie and say that those weren’t pit bulls. Instead, you said, those were bully pits and a different breed. But the breeder says on his website that he breeds “XXL red nosed pit bulls” and I was going to post that and then I realized you’d lie some more (why not - it comes naturally to you) and say that a red nosed pit bull is a different breed from a ‘pit bull’. So let’s get things moving so you can lie about other things - here, I am posting the ‘history’ portion of the page containing all those pictures of giant pit bulls. According to the history that the breeder has posted - these are what everyone knows they are - pit bulls. You know, the leader in dog bite fatalities???
The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) is a descendent of the original English bull-baiting Bulldog and has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind. The challenge of describing the American Pit Bull Terrier inevitably invites a long sequence of superlatives. The APBT is a supremely athletic, highly versatile, adaptive, gushingly affectionate, eager-to-please, all-around family dog. In courage, resolve, indefatigableness, indifference to pain, and stubborn perseverance in overcoming any challenge, the APBT has no equal in the canine world. Although the APBT was once used as a national symbol of courage and pride, the breed is largely misunderstood today.” I’ll end the excerpt here as this is a pro pit site and therefore will no doubt pretty up the breed description. Hey that ‘gushingly affectionate’ term reminds me of the blood I saw on the the victim’s stories pages...
You calling me a liar makes you look bad. Anyone who is involved with the professional side of this breed will tell you that there are LOTS of breeders that are using the pit bull name to make money off the litters. It doesn’t mean that the dogs don’t have pit bull ancestry, but it DOES mean that it has been altered to get 100 pound dogs with gigantic heads and deformed legs. Do some research on the American Bully and the Razor’s Edge and Gotti lines. I would bet money that the dogs you put up on those links are from these very lines, and that is a huge indication that they are indeed not true, to-standard American Pit Bull Terriers.
““Just because some thug calls them pit bulls doesn’t mean they fit into that category.” And just because a liar like you claims they are not doesn’t make it so. “<<<<<<<<<<<<<
OK, let’s play this silly game. Just because YOU don’t realize there is a difference between a purebred, in-standard APBT and an overbred, unhealthy, gigantic yet dwarfed American Bully (charging well into the thousands for sub-standard pups, I imagine) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It means you have no idea what you are talking about, which is why I have endeavored to educate you. You are not as up-to-date as you apparently think you are. If you insist on calling me a liar, you better find some proof! Relying on a RE breeder is not proof, it’s pathetic. Look at the standards for the APBT, written by the AKC or UKC! The dogs you have on the links are going in another direction, and the breeders are calling them pitbulls, which is also incorrect in spelling. It’s two words, gosh! A “professional” breeder can’t even get the name right? They have a lot to gain by breeding XXL dogs and calling them pit bulls. It’s what the public wants, obviously.
Look at this link, with dogs I believe actually represent the breed (as well as being proven through becoming Grand Champions in the show ring as well as holding titles in multiple dog sports). Notice there is no emphasis on size, color, or thug looks, and the dogs are medium-sized, fitting the standard as it was written, not as people would like it to be:
http://webspace.webring.com/people/ai/ivieleague/winners.html
How about this one with ADBA Grand Champions, better showing the small stature and even build of the American Pit Bull Terrier:
http://www.matrixkennels.com/trinbuck.htm
The dogs on your links may look like the above dogs to you, but they are not the same. They would be laughed out of the show ring (more likely disqualified immediately), which is why none of them seem to have any letters before their titles.
You must not know much about dog breeding, showing, breed standards, etc. because if you did, this would not even be an issue. If a dog is intentionally bred for generations to be too heavy, too tall, differently shaped, tempermentally incorrect compared to the standard it is supposed to be, papers or not, the dog is not a representation of the breed but something else. Like I said before, if you breed chihuahuas to be 40 pounds, you can flash those registration papers all you want, those are not chihuahuas!
Also, I never said I think pit bull owners should be required to carry break sticks, and for the record I think the proper training and socialization can eliminate most of the problems people think are solved with such a device. I don’t own one, but I also know my dog’s temperament around other dogs, and she is not more dog aggressive than other breeds. She doesn’t lunge at dogs, growl, stiffen up, and generally just wants to play when she meets other dogs. She is never left alone with dogs, ever, never off leash when on jogs, never given a reason to feel she needs to defend herself or me. I was simply trying to explain the use of break sticks, not to recommend them, and why people like you shouldn’t take it to mean something it doesn’t.
As for service dogs, they have to meet certain requirements, and one of those is that they can perform their tasks with distractions going on around them. I would not want a dog that didn’t like other dogs or people to end up being a service dog, no matter what breed it is. That is why people who want good service dogs look for the best candidates, the most stable temperaments. Not every pit bull could do it, just like not every lab could do it. The selection process for dogs in certification programs is very strict, and some of the nicest dogs don’t make it through.
I am starting to see something I often see with people who disagree over more than a day’s worth of discussion. You keep calling me a liar, even though my links are just as valid as yours (in one case, more so), and nothing that I have said cannot be verified using reliable sources. I don’t make things up, and I don’t rely on others for my education. I have been researching this subject for over a decade, so not a whole lot gets past me when it comes to this.
You posted pics of dogs you believe represent the breed based on my statement that dogs over 80 pounds are not true APBT. They are too far out of standard (the site even says they breed for extreme size and specific colors, two glaring traits of the worst type of backyard breeders) to be considered the same breed as the ones I posted. I posted what is appropriate size and structure-wise for the breed using links from more reputable breeders, which is easily verified through any of the three main registries. I am not sure what you think I am lying about. You disagree with me because you are not involved enough to really get the differences, and since you are on the other side of it, you can’t see that there are many differences. Here are a few pictures of dogs that are mistaken for pit bulls, along with a single pit bull picture. The rest of the dogs are all purebred, so there is no gray area:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
Where did I say I think websites shouldn’t focus just on one point of view? Please, I am not being sarcastic, but I don’t see where I have said this ever. I don’t even know what you mean by that.
“does not answer questions unless you send her money. I understand why she does not answer questiosn without sending money - it’s because people like you will send pages and pages of false information and demand that she respond in detail. It’s very time consuming to refute your distortions and lies - I should know, I’ve been doing it for days.”<<<<<<<<<
No, she doesn’t answer because she isn’t an expert, she did lousy research, and she has nothing to back her up except for her hastily-gathered compilations of media reports, anecdotal stories, and out of context quotes, all of which amount to nothing to the educated, patient reader. This is why, out of desperation after having loads of info sent to her from sources that no one could deny, she resorted to trying to destroy someone’s reputation with lies, an act for which she was successfully sued.
The reason I repeatedly bring these things up is because people like you believe she is doing all of this for charitable reasons, and I know better. I have had experience with this person/site for years, and have watched bad things happen because people relied on her site for their facts instead of taking a few extra minutes to verify the info she has there. She has created a cult following of people who are so devoted to her, they talk the same (”pit nutter” is their trademark, so when you start following suit, I will definitely be ending this discussion on my side, lol) and follow the same flawed logic, refusing any information at all, regardless of the source. None of them seem interested in learning new things, just arguing and name-calling seems to make them happy. It’s counterproductive, even if their cause was the right one. So yes, I have a bone to pick with the site. I don’t hate the woman that created it. I do feel obligated to warn people as best I can about her dealings, though, because as nice as she seems, her intentions are not. I must admit, when I first visited her site years ago, I was impressed with what she had. Then I started reading what she chose to post from the studies and what she left out, as well as her interpretations of the authors’ results, and how she was directing the entire theme to go in a dangerous direction, and I realized it was a cleverly-disguised propaganda site, and she wasn’t the altruistic victim she made herself out to be. I will try to find the link if it still exists, but a while back, someone posted some of the conversations going on between members of her site that aren’t available for the public to see. It was shocking how mean they were when talking about specific people, even people who were trying their best to do good (I’m talking people using their dogs to educate children on dog bite prevention, dog sports like flyball, stuff that should be encouraged) as if they were the scourge of humanity because the dogs they chose to use were pit bulls. The whole conversation had nothing to do with plans to help dog bite victims, raise money to help a cause, or even reasoned discussions, it was all gossip and foul-mouthed trash talking. If you still choose to follow this person/site, I believe you have been adequately warned.
How is it that I am posting @ 02NOV10 04:07 EST on a note with a hundred replies that was posted 02NOV10 04:13:33...?
I will catch up with you bastards...
I know what you mean…
I’ve been around dogs all my life. I have trained big and small ones, including Pitts and Rottweilers. I’ve been bitten only once by a little, nasty miniature poodle and still have the scar to talk about it. I will never trust those little ankle biters.
I’ve only been bitten once also - by one of my own Labs, while trying to break up a nasty little fight between him and our other Lab in our living room over a rawhide chew - it was actually my fault they started fighting over the chew.
Dear Pit-Nutter,
It’s odd that you can look at a picture of purebred pit bulls and claim that they aren’t pit bulls. DOGSBITE.ORG said that people who defend pit bulls lie about the identity of the breed and they were right. THIS is how you and other pit-nutters try to hold down the statistics that reveal the damage this breed of dogs causes - you claim breed expertise you don’t have, diminish the expertise of people who work in kennels by saying ‘they aren’t breed specialists’, deny that victims have properly identified the pit bull that attacked them. In short, you people will never admit a pit bull that has harmed some one is actually a pit bull. And now,you aren’t willing to admit that a pit bull over 80 pounds is indeed a pit bull, nor that pit bull breeders are actually breeding pit bulls.
I wonder just how high the death by pit bull rate actually is? What if police did not shoot approximately 1 pit bull per day, roughly 365 pits per year (2008 data)? Those shootings were believed to have halted approximately 8 fatalities and an unknown number of maulings. And that number might be low because of the unpredictably nature of the breed. Which means - unless we keep paying police to shoot rampaging pit bulls - the number of fatalities for 2008 would have been around 27 people killed by pit bulls that year. More than 2 people per month. Now factor in all the pit bull killings that pro pit bull people claimed were not actually pit bulls or pit crosses - just how many people are these dogs killing? Should we ‘plan’ on having the police shoot a pit per day? How about all the maulings that police respond to? Should we spend money rolling police out to break up pit bull attacks at this rate? The pit bull problem, I believe, is worse than even the documented numbers.
You can’t educate me - you are too dishonest and biased. All you can do is distort information. For example, you cannot refute the names, dates, locations and details of the pit bull fatalities listed on DOGSBITE.ORG but you CAN employ ad hominem attacks against the website’s owner. That’s it. That’s your proof. You can’t refute the body count or the fact that 29 countries have laws on the books banning or controlling these animals - you can only claim we are all deluded.
You boldly claim that pit bulls are good service dogs on a thread detailing 2 pit bulls attacking a man in a wheel chair and the fact that no service dog organization certifies pit bulls.
Several of the videos of the pit bull fatalities and maulings that I watched featured pits that were in the 50 - 70lb range so size isn’t the issue you make it. I was just addressing one of your false claims (you claimed pits could not be over 80lbs). But pits and pit bull crosses with the same behavior as pits are easily 100lbs and over.
I keep proving and proving and proving that you are a liar and you say I need to ...prove that you are a liar? THIS is why I believe the owner of DOGSBITE.oRG doesn’t reply to email unless a fee is paid - you eagerly mound up huge posts of false propaganda and you think it is worth my time to respond to each in detail. Since I wouldn’t read the study you claimed proved your assertions, you let me know the hi-lights. Yes ladies and gentlemen, thats where she said that study I was supposed to read ‘proved’ that llasa apsos have a more severe bite than pit bulls. See how much time I saved not ready that trash study? You are the only freeper I have vigorously called a liar because you are so open and free about your deceptions - all while talking down people you don’t agree with either with ad hominem attacks (e.g. mentally ill, hater, probably a criminal) or by claiming any one you disagree with is uneducated and you even say that professional pit bull breeders are wrong. You have been exposed over and over but your conscience is untouched - and eventually I saw that you were not one of the misguided souls who fall for the propaganda but that you are part of the problem of malevolent pit bull people who distort and deceive at great cost to human life and limb.
You are the first person I have talked this extensively with about the breed. You have changed my opinion of those who own pit bulls - I will now distrust them unless they convince me that they ‘just fell for the propaganda’. Because any one who comports themselves like you have denies the documented destruction these animals cause, is unworthy of friendship or trust.
Continuing to call me a liar because you have no idea about this issue and are unwilling to learn anything unless it already “supports” your side is what makes you look foolish. I have continually posted studies performed by experts that go against your claims, yet you refuse to read them, citing that they are trash. Can you prove that the authors of my studies are not experts, are biased, or are intentionally withholding information to create the results they want? I dare you to look at any of the studies I have posted and find fault with the authors. If you do, you will be going against your beloved Dogsb*te because many are the same studies. I am not sure how the same study coming from their warped filters is acceptable to you, while the actual study provided through a link by me is trash. That is irrational.
As for the breeding issue, I posted links of properly bred pit bulls fitting the standard. Did you even look? I am not just making this up, and simply glancing at the AKC or UKC standard page will reveal that dogs that large are not acceptable as representatives of the breed. Who gives a hoot if some greedy breeder is making money off of oversized dogs by calling them pit bulls? The respected registering organizations disagree, and reputable breeders disagree that dogs of that size are purebred, so who the heck are YOU to say otherwise? I am not claiming all of these facts as my own. I am gathering information from the most respected sources and providing links that you don’t bother to read.
“For example, you cannot refute the names, dates, locations and details of the pit bull fatalities listed on DOGSBITE.ORG but you CAN employ ad hominem attacks against the website’s owner. That’s it. That’s your proof.”>>>>>>>>>
I never said those people weren’t killed. I said, repeatedly, that the average number of fatalities has not risen since pit bulls became popular, a fact that you have refused to even respond to. I am not attacking the site’s owner. Everything I have said is true, and all I was trying to do was warn you that taking information from that site as truth will give you a different opinion of the situation than you would get by reading the studies from their actual sites. The reasons I gave for this (her self-proclaimed mental illness, her being sued for defamation of character, her use of quotes out of context, etc.) were to show you that she is not a trustworthy person. You went a different direction with it, choosing to become one of her supporters, so obviously you don’t care about the truth. You just want to argue.
What would you do if pit bulls were eliminated worldwide? Would you then fight to get other dogs banned? Considering that the death toll only ever rises when populations do, and before pit bulls were popular, there were just as many deaths in relation to the population of humans and canines, what do you propose to do when the only dogs killing people are “friendly”?
Secondly, why do you think people are getting killed by breeds of dog that have not been bred for fighting, guarding, or anything violent? Over 50 breeds of dog worldwide have taken lives, and the majority of these breeds have no history of breeding for human-aggression (collies, saint bernards, west highland white terriers, dachshunds, golden retrievers, labrador retrievers, chesapeake bay retrievers, border collies, old english sheepdogs, coonhounds, newfoundlands, cocker spaniels, pomeranians, huskies, basenjis, yorkshire terriers to name a few).
Here are some quotes you won’t find on that site you love, even though the same study is on there. This was taken directly from the JAVMA’s study on dog bite fatalities:
“Numerator data may be biased for 4 reasons. First, the human DBRF reported here are likely underestimated; prior work suggests the the approach we used identifies only 74% of actual cases. Second, to the extent that attacks by 1 breed are more newsworthy than those by other breeds, our methods may have resulted in differential ascertainment of fatalities by breed. Third, because identification of a dog’s breed may be subjective (even experts may disagree on the breed of a particular dog), DBRF may be differentially ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression. Fourth, it is not clear how to count attacks by cross-bred dogs. Ignoring these data underestimates breed involvement (29% of attacking dogs were cross-bred dogs), whereas including them permits a single dog to be counted more than once. “ page 4 of JAVMA, Vol 217, No 6, Sept. 15, 2000
In response to issues of breed specific legislation, they had this to say:
“An alternative to breed specific legislation is to regulate individual dogs and owners on the basis of their behavior. Although, it is not systematically reported, our reading of the fatal bite reports indicates that problem behaviors (of dogs and owners) have preceded attacks in a great many cases and should be sufficient evidence for preemptive action....Generic, non-breed specific dangerous dog laws can be enacted that place primary responsibility for a dog’s behavior on the owner, regardless of the breed. In particular, targeting chronically irresponsible dog owners may be effective.” page 5, same study.
As for your comment regarding places not certifying pit bulls as service animals, there are lots of places that only certify certain breeds, and that has absolutely nothing to do with pit bulls being bad at it or banned. Even in places where pit bull bans exist, a pit bull service dog has the same access as any other breed, and the ADA clearly stated recently that no person with disabilities can be refused admittance based on the breed of their service dog, even in areas with BSL. The ADA doesn’t have a certification requirement for service animals. Any breed can be a service animal, and does not need certification because there is no national program to monitor or regulate it. As long as the dog is well-behaved and performs at least three tasks that assist its owner, it is classified as a service animal.
“You can’t refute the body count or the fact that 29 countries have laws on the books banning or controlling these animals - you can only claim we are all deluded.”>>>>>
I am well aware that several areas have bsl. I am also aware that several places I ALREADY MENTIONED have repealed their bans due to their ineffectiveness and high cost! YOU are deluded if you believe any of these bans have improved the safety of the public. Obviously, if the bans had worked, there would be no need to repeal them and choose RDO laws. Can you give me any other reason that they have repealed them?
You can call me a liar all you want, but if you don’t answer any of the questions above, what are you here for? If a rational discussion is not what you are looking for, count me out. I have no interest in continuing this any further if you are going to throw insults and ignore facts.
Dear Pit-Nutter,
I call you a liar because you lie. That’s why.
As a trained biologist I am used to reading studies to determine validity - but in your case, I can use the simplest method. If a study’s results are patently false, I don’t need to read the study to find out there’s something wrong with it.
When people like me point out that pit bulls kill a person in the US on average, one per 22 days. You want to change the subject so you start talking about ‘bite severity’ of...dachshunds! And Llasa Apsos! Your study says that those two species have a more severe bite than pit bulls. One of the problems with pit bulls is their maul victims look like they have been attacked by sharks. Pit bulls leap up and grab the face, often the lower jaw. They then ‘grip’ no matter what you try to do - at least until large portions of your face tears away. They also shake their head side by side violently to rip the flesh off. That side to side shake is probably what results in shark like wounds.
That’s why plastic surgery for the face is so common for pit victims. Trying to strike the dog to make him let go of your face usually has no effect. Pit bull breeder sites brag that one of the dog’s stellar traits is that it is ‘impervious’ to pain - like that’s a sought after trait in a companion animal. So, while this dog, which can weigh 40 to 142lbs (yes! There’s a pit breeder who has the largest blue pit bull in the US weighing 142lbs! But ok - let’s say many are in the 70lb range) and has your face clamped in his mouth and thrashes side to side to rip muscle and sinew off bone, the fact that rescuers try hitting the attacking animal over the head, as hard as possible, with a baseball bat, crowbar, hammer, board, chair, or any other object ‘has no effect at all’ on the animal. The police who end up shooting these pit bulls on an average of 1 per day usually have to shoot it more than one time because the dogs will continue the attack. This will to kill and keep killing even if struck with a crowbar or shot at is called ‘gameness’. Bit bull lover websites praise this ‘gameness’ - the dog WILL NOT GIVE UP. That’s why police end up shooting this dog - because nothing else seems to stop it except the death of their victim.
Knowing this - you tell me that I am looking the threat posed by llasa apsos???? And that llasa apsos have a more severe bit and there’s a study to prove it? Tell me, how often are police called to homes in the US to shoot a llasa apsos that cannot be controlled any other way. What would happen if you hit a llasa apsos, as hard as you could, over the head with a baseball bat, crowbar, chair, board etc? How much do llasa’s weigh? 13-15lbs? You know, of course, that pit bull lover’s websites encourage owners to strengthen the already structurally mighty jaws of a pit bull with poll training. Is it common for llasa apsos owners to strengthen the jaws of those little dogs. Does it escape your capacity to reason why a 15lb dog that people have to worry about stepping on, that can be contained by placing him in a brown paper page, that would certainly die with the stroke of a baseball bat to his head, that has a tiny mouth compared with a pit, that has not been breed to kill and maim without warning like pit bulls, that do not cause the death and damage that pit bulls cause - are in anyway comprable, let alone MORE SEVERE biters than pit bulls. No, I don’t need to read the study. As a biologist, I was trained that expert opinion can easily be bought. My senior thesis for my Biological Sciences degree included the analysis of a false study underwritten by scores of experts purporting to ‘prove’ that oil spills benefit the environment. Think of those doctors who claim cigarette smoking is healthy. Your fake study is trash and unless I have nothing better to do, I will not spend time reading a trash study to find out exactly WHY it’s trash. Part of the reason is likely that the study people out and out lie about the results and the other is intentional bias. But what can’t be faked is the body count I point to. And in response to the body count - you cite a study ‘proving’ that llasa apsos have a more severe bite because what else can you point to but biased studies.
You continue to accuse me of basing my opinion on dogsbite.org website even though I described other websites, videos, and breed specific laws pertaining to thirty nations (and no - I really don’t think those thirty nations only based their laws on one website you hate)who have found the maiming and killing of their population unacceptable. I guess that’s why you then post ad hominem attacks on the owner of that site. What I base my opinion on is the damage these animals do and the multiple websites videos, and nations that document the damage. But that, you can’t refute, so you lie and say I base my opinion on website. See - how tedious it is for me to write posts to a liar because I write the truth and you lie in response. How boring.
I will probably address more of your post when I have patience for your nonsense (maybe this evening) and lies.
Lies and distortion - you labor at it as if it’s your life’s work.
For all the degrees you said you have, you never took a course in logic? You cannot dismiss a study based on your opinion of its results and be taken seriously.
“When people like me point out that pit bulls kill a person in the US on average, one per 22 days. You want to change the subject so you start talking about ‘bite severity’ of...dachshunds! And Llasa Apsos! Your study says that those two species have a more severe bite than pit bulls.” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hmm.....let’s see, my response to this is and has been that yes, pit bulls, among other breeds, have and do take human lives, but pit bulls have not raised the average number of fatalities, (this directly addresses your 1 in 22 days statement, as it has the last three times I have said it) and the average has been more than one death a month even in years when pit bulls were not at the top of the list (this nullifies your 1 in 22 days argument, a fact you also ignored several times now). So no, I didn’t change the subject. You ignored what I said, repeatedly, and opted instead to focus on a study you refuse to read.
For the record, if you had actually bothered to read the study, it did not state that the dogs had “a more severe bite” than pit bulls. It said based on the number and severity of bites in this particular study, there were more severe bites from these breeds than from pit bulls. It doesn’t mean they bite harder, or that they’re meaner, or anything else but what it says.
Not every pit bull bite is going to result in a hospital visit, just as not every lhasa apso bite is not. Some dogs only bite once, and some attack repeatedly, and it appears from this study, as well as the ATTS numbers based on tests on unprovoked aggression in all breeds, that the breed of dog has much less to do with the outcome as the owner’s involvement in its training, socialization, and safe keeping.
“Pit bulls leap up and grab the face, often the lower jaw. They then ‘grip’ no matter what you try to do - at least until large portions of your face tears away. They also shake their head side by side violently to rip the flesh off. That side to side shake is probably what results in shark like wounds.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is true if you are referring to attacks on children, but it has far more to do with the fact that a child’s height puts it at the same height as many dogs. As far as the whole shake side to side argument, this has been repeated over and over again by people who are clueless when it comes to dogs. Every breed of dog with teeth will do this. It comes directly from instinctual drives in wolves that would do this to quickly dispatch their prey. This is not a pit bull-specific issue, nor is this something bred into them, and pit bulls do not do this more frequently than other breeds. In fact, if you want to bring breeding into it, they were originally bred to grip without tearing a bull’s nose, keeping it still for the slaughter, and in dog fights, more damage is done with this technique than with slashing around (like wrestling compared to boxing).
“Lies and distortion - you labor at it as if it’s your life’s work.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You are throwing insults again. Tell me, the last post I made, where were the lies? Did I not post up directly from the same study you read on your beloved site? I quoted it word for word, provided you with the exact pages I got the information from, and gave you the date it came out. If you still want to call me a liar, perhaps you better start looking for proof, because it cannot get more straighforward than that.
As for your continually ignoring my questions, I will take it that you don’t have the answers, are scared to admit that you don’t know, and insist that calling me a liar to distract me is your best bet that I will forget. Again, you are mistaken.
Please tell me why, out of two thousand daily attacks requiring medical attention, we only read about one or two pit bull attacks? Why aren’t the other stories on the news?
Please tell me, why have countries with long-standing breed bans been increasingly repealing them in favor of dog laws addressing all breeds?
Please, inform me, why is it that the average number of fatalities has not increased, no matter which breed is at the top of the list?
It’s not my ‘opinion’ of the results. It is the documented names, dates, geographic locations and details of maulings and killings. You cannot be taken seriously because you lie and distort.
The fact that pit bull caused fatalities were 57 persons over a 3 year period and that’s WITH the police shooting about 1 pit a day to stop even more fatalities and maulings is acceptable to you - you feel we the public should accept the blood shed, the facial reconstructions, the limb amputations caused by unprovoked pit bull attacks so that you can feel superior and special. Of all the dog breeds in the US, pit bull lovers insist we all pay the price for their preference for an animal bred specifically to kill without warning. In fact, your judgment is such that you look at the names, dates, geographic locations and details of this animal and declare that it’s an ideal service dog! Why YES the handicapped should have dogs known to kill, dogs the police most often have to shoot. In fact, pit bulls break containment more often then other breeds and pit bull owners joke about their ability to do so - this means we have vicious cross breeds. But it gets ‘better’. People wanting to own a pit bull but wishing to avoid the inevitable stigma of a person who intentionally brings a dog known for human fatalities, pet fatalities, and maulings into their neighborhoods and homes buy crossbreeds. Yup I searched on black lab/pit bull cross and one page pulled up 188 advertisements!
Yes pit bull owners insist our entire population suffer so that they can personally feel ‘special’ about themselves. And since you have personally proven that a pit bull lover will look at photos of pure bred pit bulls and deny that they are pit bulls, owners of pit bull crosses and their fans lie and say that their animals are not crossed with pits. THEN pit bull fans say ‘other dogs kill too’ pointing to breeds like black labs when in fact they are pointing to the various crosses with fighting dogs like pit bulls, rott weilers, a few of the pit bull relatives, and wolf ‘hybrids’ owned by other people who also need to feel ‘special’.
I was trying to figure out why you are comfy and determined in your lies and distortions. I also wondered why the fatalities and maulings caused by pit bulls is acceptable to you. Insurance companies identify the same handful of aggressive species causing the most human and property damage, as do other sites that gather statistics but you deny it all. So I looked at a correlational study of people who own aggressive dog species.
Here’s the link.http://mindhacks.com/2009/03/07/psychological-characteristics-of-vicious-dog-owners/
The Study Title: Psychological characteristics of vicious dog owners
What can I say, Liar, but that it doesn’t reflect well on viscous dog owners.
“reports that owners of Akitas, Chow-Chows, Dobermans, Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, and Wolf-mixes endorsed approximately 10 times more criminal convictions than owners of nonvicious dogs. Further, vicious dog owners reported more crimes involving aggression, children, alcohol, and domestic violence than owners of nonvicious dogs.”
“…As hypothesized, a significant difference in criminal behavior was found based on dog ownership type. Owners of vicious dogs were significantly more likely to admit to violent criminal behavior, compared to large dog owners, small dog owners, and controls. The vicious dog owner sample also engaged in more types (i.e., violent, property, drug, and status) of criminal behavior compared to all other participant groups.”
“Personality traits were examined and vicious dog owners were significantly higher than controls on impulsive sensation seeking. Examining psychopathic traits, owners of high-risk dogs endorsed significantly more characteristics of primary psychopathy (e.g., carelessness, selfishness, and manipulative tendencies) than small dog owners.”
That’s only a small 800 person correlational study performed at a college. I look forward to more studies about owners because there is something in them that compels them to demand the right to own the most vicious species of dogs - no other dogs will do but the fighting breeds. But it does underscore the problem the rest of of face when trying to create laws or regulate vicious breeds like the pit bull - the owners and defenders are an equal part of the problem. Deny, lie, distort and run away when their dogs attack. If pit bulls had a false reputation for viciousness, the criminals among us would have found that out by trial and error by now. There’s no reasoning with the pro pit lobby - they are largely evil with a small but important number of people among them who really mean well. I have two friends that have had these dogs at one time or another. One was a young man proving himself as ‘counter culture’. The other one was given a dog that didn’t attack anyone. I am not saying there are no examples of these dogs not ‘going off’. Obviously there are some dogs of any breed that do not behave in the stereotypical manner of the breed. But the bred-for traits of fighting dogs like pit bulls emerge way too often and account for way to many deaths and maulings. And most pit bull lovers do not care. They are selfish and they want what they want and they have their own reality and talk down to anyone who points out the bloody reality.
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