Posted on 10/22/2010 8:10:34 PM PDT by Chet 99
“Your argument overlooks the unique physical and behavior combination that pitbulls have.”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What physical and behavior combination is unique to the pit bull? I have studied this breed in detail for over a decade, and I assure you if you have heard they are different in some way, it was not from a reputable source. The American Temperament Test Society ranks them better than the average for all breeds when testing on unprovoked aggression. Tests on bite pressure using a computerized bite sleeve have shown that pit bulls have a bite that is weaker than many other breeds, and it is related to the size of the dog. The “bite and shake” attack style so often cited as a reason for pit bull tragedies is something ALL dogs do when they are attacking, but for some reason people seem to forget this happens. I work with lots of dogs. I see many dogs doing this when they play and when they fight, and it is not limited to breed. There are just as many nips from pit bulls as there are from other breeds. They just don’t sell papers.
Also, consider that the average number of fatalities has not risen in a significant way since the breed became popular. If they really were that bad, 10 million dogs would be enough to raise the death toll by hundreds, at the very least.
“Also, ‘responsible ownership’ is not working in this country. By your own argument, the owners are the problems and yet we’re going to ‘encourage them’ to be more responsible?”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me add a little detail so you understand what I mean by responsible ownership. I am not saying we should stand around waiting for people to do the right thing. I am saying that there are some pretty darn good laws on the books right now that are capable of preventing tragedies, but no one is enforcing them! Animal control and police rarely come into my neighborhood, even though I was attacked by a pack of dogs early this year, and I did end up in the hospital. NO one came out to get the vicious dogs.
The reason why Calgary has seen such a dramatic decrease in their dog attacks is because they not only started programs to educate the public on how to properly care for their dogs, but they enforce the laws, every time. There is no room for error.
Where I live there is a leash law, and there is most definitely a law stating that puppies cannot be sold if they are under 8 weeks old. I see entire packs of stray dogs on an almost daily basis, and when I take my dogs for a walk, chows, dachshunds, labs, and chihuahuas all come running loose down the street for a fight, while their idiot owners stare out at ME like I’M the problem! My pit bull-type dog is vaccinated, spayed, on leash at all times, never left alone in the yard (even though we have a six foot privacy fence), socialized, certified (canine good citizen and therapy dog), and stable (but will never, ever be alone with a child-it’s still a dog). Every other ad on my local Craigslist is for 6 week old pit bull puppies or for dogs that have been found running free. The problem is that this government thinks that simply announcing the laws is going to get people to obey them. It’s time for enforcement.
I wouldn’t be all for these kinds of laws and against banning if I hadn’t read about all of these places doing various things and seeing what works and what doesn’t. It would be very simple to just kill anything that looks mean, but that’s not the problem. There are millions of pit bulls, the vast majority of the breed, that will never hurt anyone. Yet the less than one percent that do are what you and others base your opinions on. That seems foolish to me. There isn’t a single place that has banned breeds that has had success with it. So, why would you want to do something that doesn’t help? Responsible ownership laws like those in Calgary have been proven to nip it in the bud, yet you won’t consider them? Why not? 19 people died last year in this country from dog attacks that would have still happened if all pit bulls had been wiped out. Why do they not matter? I am simply trying to find a solution that addresses the problem. I don’t want a band-aid. I want a cure, and breed bans are not it.
“Like many modern breeds, it is impossible to be completely sure of the details of the American Pit Bull Terrier’s long history. However, many pit bull enthusiasts believe the origins of the breed can be traced back to antiquity and the Molossian family of dogs.....”>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Most large breed dogs come from molossers. Great Danes, Tibetan Mastiffs, Entlebucher Sennehunds, Saint Bernards, Appenzeller Sennehunds, Rottweilers, Newfoundlands, Broholmers, Ovtcharkas, Boxers, etc. but all the breeds branched off into new jobs, as did the pit bull-type dogs. Rottweilers were once used to pull carts, but their jobs changed as the times changed and they were found useful in other things. Only one of the breeds above are now considered vicious, even though they all came from the same ancient type.
The pit bull type dogs found use as a butcher’s dog to start, and found their way into ratting and dog fighting after bull baiting was made illegal. After dog fighting became illegal, many responsible owners found yet more uses for the dogs, such as household pets, therapy dogs, search and rescue, obedience, flyball, agility, even herding. They were never bred to guard, and never were they bred to be suspicious of strangers. Aggression towards humans is uncharacteristic of the breed.
There is no better companion than a properly raised pit bull, hands down. They were bred to fight animals, sure, but all the time they were being bred for this, they were also being bred to be human-submissive and obedient to a fault. Many dog men will tell you that to get a good pit dog, you need lots of conditioning and training, and that a good fighting dog can come from parents that were not fighters, and vice versa. Dogs, like people, are individuals, and should not be judged based on the minority’s actions or their family history.
*sigh*
Many, many breeds are descended from the Molossers, including English Mastiffs, BullMastiffs, Bulldogs, Boxers, and Great danes. Do they scare you, too?
Source:
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/molossers-mastiff-type-dogs.html
One strain of the ‘bull and terrier’ dog came to be known as the Staffordshire Bull Terrier(pitbull) in 1935.
Source:
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bull-and-terrier-breeds.html
Do you bother to research at all before you post?
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree. You claim expertise and then say there is nothing distinctive about this breed behavior and physical capcity????
Pit fans have decided to ignore all unpleasant information and lobby for the status quo - the number of killings and maimings is a matter of indifference to pit fans because...well...it didn’t happen to THEM I guess. First person accounts by dog trainer - denied. The experience of the US Military in handling these animals, denied. First person accounts of savage attacks atypical of other breeds, denied. Zero concern on the part of pit fans for those who suffer death and maiming, truly zero. Options like regulation are talked down - agitation for the bloody status quo. The body count and maimings, occurring over a 20 year period, denied. Nope - the propit lobby only accepts as ‘real’ its own opinions and declares all opposing information to be ignorance. I think I get your position, and that of other propit defenders. Pits have more rights than people and those victims who are killed or maimed are an acceptable cost behind choosing this breed over all the other less damaging species. I.get.it. But I don’t agree.
Scared? Where in my previous post did you deduce that from? I was just clarifying your misinformation that you were attemtping to spread in your zeal to defend the indefensible. Do I fear these dogs? NO! Do I understand that these breeds are dangerous? You’re damned right I do. Thus the reason why I am armed at all times throughout my day - especially given the propensity for people with nefarious backgrounds to own these dangerous breeds who wander around the areas in which I work. Now, do I believe that every single example of these dogs will attack? I ask because that appears to be your bend on my position. There are responsible owners of these breeds who have their dogs under control - though, the risk is always there. Unfortunately, there are way way way too many people who own these breeds who do not have their dogs under control, and have no idea of how to obtain control. Those dogs are all around us, and represent a huge potential for causing severe damage and pain to people and other pets. It’s really too bad that you will always fail to acknowledge this simple fact.
I'm sorry, but this statement is just totally incorrect. There are a number of breeds of dogs which make much better companion dogs than pit bulls, period. Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, Border Collies, are just three breeds that come to mind off the top. I've been around many many many trained companion dogs in the past 14 years, and not one single companion dog was a pit.
It’s my opinion. You can disagree all you want. I have been working with dogs at least as long as you have, and have extensive experience with the breed, having worked in shelters saturated with them for the last decade. I also grew up with a lab that would try to eat other dogs, and this year I was attacked by a pack of dogs, the leader of which was a lab. Anecdotal evidence is all it is, and that’s why it’s my opinion. However, I am sure there are many who have both pit bulls and retrievers that would say they are both the best.
You say that there are so many people getting mauled and killed, yet you fail to see that the average number of fatalities has not risen since they became popular. 13 thousand people a day are attacked by dogs, 2 thousand of which end up in the hospital. This is from public health records, not media reports. Tell me, why do you think that out of two thousand hospital trips a day, we only ever hear about pit bull attacks on the news?
The media didn’t even want to do my story of being attacked by a pack of dogs, and I was in the hospital. The dogs involved weren’t newsworthy. As for trainers, I have only ever heard of one good trainer having an issue with the dogs, but all the other really wonderful trainers, including the famous Cesar Milan, think the world of the breed. Veterinarians, animal behaviorists, etc. that are top of their fields disagree with the media’s view. And as for the military, they are not dog experts any more than state governments are. My husband is in the military, and I personally know a dog trainer. I would never let him mess with my dogs. He went through a training program shorter than a semester of college to do what he does, and his methods make me cringe. But he trains dogs that are not for companionship, but work, and there is a high “wash-out” rate for them. The military gets their information not from experts, but from the same media “experts” that states do for their regulations.
www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com
The above site has a wealth of information regarding this, and the council is made up of nothing but experts that are highly regarded in their fields. There is also an entire book free to download on this site regarding this issue.
I would love to see your proof (in a reputable study or experiment) that the dogs are different or more dangerous. I am not being sarcastic, I love to learn new things, and I have been studying this issue for over a decade, reading everything I find on either side. If you have some information I haven’t seen, post it up here!
I've seen, heard, and read about them being used as attack dogs though. There are lots and lots of examples of that type of use.
You and other pro-pit people have convinced me that information and facts don’t matter to you. You are posting on a thread where a handicapped man was pulled from his wheel chair by a pair of attacking pits. I’ve seen posts like yours on the thread where two pit bulls broke through a closed screen door and killed a toddler playing on her living room floor. I’ve written on threads about a friend trying to save a child by hitting a pit in the head with a tire iron (oh and the dog just growled louder) and still the pro-pit lobby shows up to say it’s all in our heads, it’s all a matter of our ignorance. I’ve seen posts like yours on many of Chet99’s threads detailing the bizarre behavior common to pit bull attacks. You people inevitable show up and declare something like “Who are you going to believe? Me or your lyin’ eyes?” It’s odd that you people post this kind of thing on threads specifying yet one more attack. I begin to think your assertion that people are the problem is at least partly true. People who insist that these animals are falsely maligned and people who make a civil rights issue out of a legitimate animal control issue are part of the reason others make a point of buying this animal without understanding that it needs special enclosures and special handling. When the pit bull lobby admits there is something different about this animal (combination of physical and behavioral traits) and it therefore has different requirements, I’ll be interested in what they have to say. When the pit bull lobby does something to actually, literally address this issue other than tell the rest of us not to believe our lyin’ eyes - I
I’ll change my current opinion that pro-pit people are part of the problem. It will help their PR effort if they show a passing interest in the actual thread content (gee...a man in a wheel chair attacked and mauled by pits! That’s gonna leave a mark!).
FWIW, I found a website that ‘says it all’. It is www.dogsbite.org.
In this website, concerned citizens collect information about serious dog bites and it’s a great hub of information regarding pit bulls.
Specifically - the site notes that pit-bull apologists often talk about them being companion dogs and then provides links to stories (for example - a ‘companion’ pit let off his leash, a mounted cop tells owner to put the dog on a leash, the dog attacks the horse, horse kicks dog owner in face, horse is injured and retires from force due to skittishness following attack, officer sustains back injury) Followed an interesting link to a study that seems to suggest that pit bull owners are likely to be more selfish and lack empathy than control groups.
Excellent stories and statistics that shed light on this issue. The stats indicate far more death and damage due to pits than is acknowledged. In particular - it has a 2008 report on copy and citizen shootings of pits that REDUCED the expected amount of fatalities for this dog!
Experts are fooled by this animal because it attacks without warning by genetic design (fighting dogs do not signal impending attack).
Absolutely heartbreaking videos of maimed people trying to put their lives together again.
It’s everything we know and it includes the evasions that pro-pit lobby uses like “there are different breeds of pits so statistics citing ‘pit-bull types’ are not accurate” when in fact authorities classify ‘pit bull types’ this way because pro-pitbull apologists have intentionally tried to conceal the identity of the species by renaming it a few times over the course of many years.
Below, I’ll paste some quotes I took from the many pages of the website - no need to read it if you’ve moved on to other topics by now but some of it was surprising if you are up for reading more.
In the July/August 2009 issue of Animal People, the group estimated that of the 1,663,167 shelter dogs projected to be euthanized in 2009, pit bulls accounted for 58%. This is true despite the fact that pit bulls only make up 5% of the total U.S. dog population.
When the Colorado Supreme Court upheld the Denver pit bull ban in 2005, the high court set aside characteristics that pit bulls displayed when they attack that differ from other dog breeds. One of these characteristics was their lethal bite:
“[pit bulls] inflict more serious wounds than other breeds. They tend to attack the deep muscles, to hold on, to shake, and to cause ripping of tissues. Pit bull attacks were compared to shark attacks.”11
One of the most powerful examples of a pit bull “not letting go” occurred in an Ohio courtroom. During the Toldeo v. Tellings trial (Paul Tellings attempted to overturn Toledo and Ohio state pit bull laws and failed), Lucas County Dog Warden Tom Skeldon showed a videotape of a tranquilized pit bull hanging from a steel cable. The dog is unconscious and still does not release its grip. At the time of the taping, the animal was being housed at the county animal shelter.
To understand the experience of owning a negatively perceived dog, Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy did a study on pit bull owners. Researchers found that owners of pit bulls directly feel the stigma targeted at their breed and resort to various tactics to lessen it. One of the tactics included attempts to counterbalance the pit bull’s menacing appearance and physical power with overwhelming “affectionate” behavior: “My dog might lick you to death.
Pit bulls are the dog of choice amongst dogmen, individuals who fight their pit bulls against other pit bulls. Dogmen consider pit bulls, who they commonly call “100% bulldogs,” to be the ultimate canine gladiator. Pit bulls were selectively bred for “gameness,” the ability to finish a fight. A truly “gamedog” will continue fighting “on stumps,” two or more broken legs.4 (Please see excerpts from The Complete Gamedog, by Ed and Chris Faron to learn more).
• In 1935, the American Kennel Club (AKC) agreed to register pit bull dogs, but only under the name Staffordshire terrier. This was done to distance the breed from its continued use in dogfighting. Thus, the pit bull and the Staffordshire terrier was one in the same, yet held two different names.2
• In 1972, the AKC renamed the breed to the American Staffordshire terrier. Though the American Staffordshire terrier is by definition a pit bull, many owners claim they are different breeds and shelters adopt out pit bulls under the Staffordshire name to fool unsuspecting members of the public.3
• In 1996, the San Francisco Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals renamed pit bulls to “St. Francis Terriers.” The hope was to make the breed more adoptable. After much screening, about 60 pit bulls were placed. The program was suspended after several of the re-dubbed dogs killed cats.4
• In 2004, while serving as the director of New York City Animal Care and Control, Ed Boks tried to rename pit bulls to “New Yorkies” also in hopes of making the breed more adoptable. Boks’ idea failed, as did his tenure in New York City, which only lasted from 2003-2005.5
• Meanwhile, dogfighters historically and presently refer to pit bulls as “bulldogs.” The American bulldog, which is unrecognized by the AKC, was only recognized by the United Kennel Club (UKC) in 1999. Furthermore, the breed was called the “American pit bulldog” up until the 1970s.
The many names of the pit bull over the course of history is why breed-specific legislation defines the pit bull as a “class of dogs” that includes the following breeds and their mixes: American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier and American bulldog.8 Despite pit bull owners, animal groups and dogfighters attempts to obscure the name of the pit bull breed, well-written breed-specific laws always encapsulate the pit bull’s many names.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19550155/Vicious-Dogs-the-Antisocial-Behaviors-and-Psychological-Characteristics-of-Owners
Injuries caused by dogs cost insurance companies nearly one billion dollars annually (2,3). Consequently, many insurance companies refuse to issue homeowners insurance to owners of specific breeds of dogs considered‘‘vicious’’ or high risk of causing injury. The six breeds most commonly identified as
‘‘vicious’’are Akita, Chow (‘‘Chow Chow’’), Doberman, Pit Bull,
Rottweiler, and Wolf-mix .
Seattle, Washington (June 3, 2009) — DogsBite.org, a national dog bite victims’ group dedicated to reducing serious dog attacks, releases its 2008 report on pit bulls shot for public safety reasons. The 20-page report documents 373 incidences in which U.S. law enforcement officers and citizens were forced to shoot a dangerous pit bull to prevent an attack or to stop an ongoing attack.
The report tracked 12 data aspects per incident. Of the 373 incidences, 626 bullets were fired and 319 pit bulls were killed. 148 people suffered bite injury in these incidences as well. In at least three instances, the bite injury resulted in amputation. In six instances, the bite injury resulted in death. The findings also show that firearm intervention might have prevented at least eight deaths by a pit bull mauling in this period.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7775401/Excerpts-Dog-Bite-Prevention-for-Law-Enforcement-and-Other-First-Responders-by-Randall-Lockwood
Fighting dogs “fight” and guarding dogs “guard,” and attack dogs “attack” because we bred them to do that. And to say that all pit bulls are voracious killers because
that’s how they were bred is certainly inaccurate. To say that it’s all up to the people — the only bad
ones are the ones people abused or are trained to be bad — that’s also untrue.
That although dogfighters are the first to tell you that their dogs have been bred for centuries to not be aggressive to people that doesn’t seem to be that true anymore. We were hearing 10 and 15 years ago about cases of dogs jumping out of the pit and attacking spectators.We hear that quite often now.
So most dogs are hardwired to respond to a display of submission by cutting off
aggression because it means you have won.
But if you area fighting dog and the object is to inflict the most damage possible, a submissive
gesture is just a new opening. In the early 80’s, I started hearing from the Humane Society about the
fighting breeds they were getting (and they did not know what they were getting). They would put
that dog into a pen with a German Shepherd, and the German Shepherd speaks “dog,” they play by
wolf rules, and the German Shepherd would go belly up, and the pit bull would just disembowel him.
They don’t speak that language. They ignore that signal.
And that’s one of the most devastating things we have done to fighting dogs. Is that we have
destroyed their ability to speak good wolf or good dog. And they’ve taken it even one step further.
The truly sinister communicator not only doesn’t tell you what he feels or what he is going to do next.
He lies to you.
Fighting dogs lie all the time. I experienced it first hand when I was investigating three pit bulls that killed a little boy in Georgia. When I went up to do an initial evaluation of the dog’s behavior. The dog came up to the front of the fence, gave me a nice little tail wag and a “play bow” — a little solicitation, a little greeting. As I got closer, he lunged for my face.
It was one of those “ah ha” experiences. Yeah, that would really work. That would really work in a
dog pit. Because 99% of dogs are going to read that as “Oh boy I am your friend, let’s play — and
there’s my opening”. I said, How evil is that? That we have been able to create a dog that can do
something like that?”
Expert Randall Lockwood
Randall Lockwood has degrees in psychology and biology from Wesleyan University and a doctorate in
comparative and physiological psychology from Washington University. He served as vice president for
research and educational outreach for the Humane Society of the United States until 2005, when he became
the ASPCA’s Senior Vice President for Anti-Cruelty Initiatives and Training. For more than 25 years, Lockwood
has worked closely with humane societies, animal control agencies and law enforcement, serving as an expert
on wolf and dog behavior, dog aggression, dog bite prevention and illegal dogfighting. He has been an advisor
on animal-related issues to the Centers for Disease Control and the United States Postal Service
Just one more stat I find shocking...
For the year 2009:
Of the 88 fatal dog attacks recorded by DogsBite.org, pit bull type dogs were responsible for 59% (52). This is equivalent to a pit bull killing a U.S. citizen every 21 days during this 3-year period.
Hey, hey, hey! I must take ISSUE with that statement!
That's my namesake you are swearing at, there, granny! LOL
My “vicious” lil’dawg has turned into a couch tater,,,
Spoiled rotten to the core...LOL...
Me too, it comes with age...:O)
LOL,,,I have to confess to that myself...;0)
It IS an opinion of mine. Perhaps you have no personal experience with the breed as companions. I have, and I belong to an extensive network of responsible pit bull owners, rescues, trainers, and veterinarians who all agree with me. Just because the military doesn’t use the dogs, and some of their “trainers” don’t like them, doesn’t mean the breed is bad. There are not nearly as many pit bull companion, service, or drug sniffing dogs as there are other breeds, but they are out there. I can think of one right now, but I don’t have a link to it. Popsickle is a famous drug-sniffing dog that was responsible for a huge drug bust some years ago, and my brother used one for search and rescue a few years back as well. There is a forum I go to frequently where there are several service dogs, therapy dogs, and lots of UKC superdogs that are all pit bulls also. They are hard-working, willing to please, and highly trainable, and although there aren’t a lot of them, they are around and doing good things just like other breeds are.
Did you even read any of the links I gave you? You didn’t post up any proof of your assertions either. You can say I am wrong all you want but so far I am the one posting up reputable sources of information and you have nothing but anecdotes and media reports.
You also never answered why out of the two thousand dog attacks sending people to the hospital every single day, we only hear about one or two on the news, and they are almost always pit bulls. I know for a fact it isn’t because those are the worst ones....I was sent to the hospital by non-pit bull-type dogs, and no reporter wanted my story. I have seen stories posted on this very site of pit bull attacks where no one was even bitten or scratched!!! How can you not see that this is wrong?!
I have repeatedly posted how the average number of fatalities hasn’t risen since pit bulls became popular, yet you ignore this fact as well. It seems like you are adamant about not changing your mind despite information that is contrary to it! I am here because I want less attacks, and I know based on the reports of failure coming from every place that has banned breeds of dogs and the fact that the vast majority of true experts (not military dog handlers or the media, neither of which are educated in this matter) agree that the breed of dog is irrelevant and the owner is the true cause.
The CDC did an excellent study regarding this that compiled over a decade’s worth of dog attack fatalities, and even though many breed ban enthusiasts take certain quotes out of context to make it appear the study shows pit bulls are dangerous, the authors of the study are very vocal about the fact that irresponsible ownership is more common in dog attacks than any single breed, and that breed bans are counterproductive and wasteful.
I agree. Just tonight, we entertained quite a few young halloween trick-or-treaters, and my girl “Pumpkin” was delightful and excited to see everyone. (She was on leash inside the house, but her butt was rocking from side to side so hard I thought she might hurt herself).
I feel sorry for the people that have not had the pleasure of meeting a well-behaved pit bull. I hear about responsibly-owned dogs like that changing minds every day. Sometimes I think people imagine some vicious, 100 pound snarling beast with scissor-cut ears and glowing eyes instead of the 35-60 pound smiling, tail-wagging clown that responsible owners have. Of course their experiences always involve loose dogs (obviously not responsibly owned if they’re loose!!) that are coming up to them, but that’s the same idiocy that sent me to the hospital, and the dogs that attacked me were not pit bulls, but a lab, a dachshund, and two other non-pit bull-type mutts. They don’t see that regardless of breed, the same patterns show up in almost every single dog attack, and that’s irresponsible ownership.
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