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Sorry for not being more explicit about “public.” I thought it was implied, as I had referenced public comments about the evils of slavery by the Founders, not their private communications.

I realize Lee was all in favor of “spiritual liberty” for blacks. He just didn’t think they should receive their physical liberty anytime in the next few centuries. Do you disagree that people are less likely to achieve spiritual liberty when they are physically enslaved?

Your final comment was a non-response response. By what criteria do you consider defense of the institution of slavery not to be in conflict with the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence? Lee quite obviously and explicitly did NOT consider “all men to be created equal.”

I’m going to jump in here and point out something. First, if you honestly believe that people are less likely to achieve spiritual liberty when they are physically enslaved, then how do you deal with Philemon and some of the other books of the New Testament which deal with slavery in a manner that is different than what we deal with it?

The Bible, which was a constant source of guidance to many major figures on both sides of this conflict, is explicit in that personal freedom is inferior to spiritual freedom. Now, with this in mind, go back and reread what Lee wrote. He understands that personal liberty is desireable, but not at the expense of salvation. As the saying goes, what does it profit a man if he gains the entire world, yet loses his soul?

Now, look at Lee’s predictions that it would be better if Providence’s guidance would be allowed to proceed unhindered as opposed to man acting before it was time. What is the current state of mankind in America thanks to the Civil War? Would you still consider us a Christian nation, or one that is quickly sliding towards secularism? What drives that secularism?

One last quote and I’ll leave it alone.

“In the end, the state of the Union comes down to the character of the people. … I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her commodious harbors, her ample rivers, and it was not there. I sought for it in the fertile fields, and boundless prairies, and it was not there. I sought it in her rich mines, and vast world commerce, and it was not there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her genius and power.” - Alexis de Tocqueville

Are we sure that personal liberty trumps spiritual liberty in importance? I hold no desire to make a slave of anyone, but at the same time, I realize that the Civil War had us as a nation trade one form of slavery (physical slavery) for another (spiritual slavery to Mammon) and we not only asked for it, but we celebrated it and still celebrate it.

Sherman L; I realize Lee was all in favor of “spiritual liberty” for blacks. He just didn’t think they should receive their physical liberty anytime in the next few centuries. Do you disagree that people are less likely to achieve spiritual liberty when they are physically enslaved?

I had already posted the following before but am gaining great knowledge on how to use the same studies over and over and over again and again since there are, and always will be, individuals with brains and hearts truth will never penetrate and just don't care one way or another.

So for any interested in what the Word of God instructs, and not what "so and so" THINKS . . . here is a study on the Apostle Paul's letter to Philemon. . . and a few thoughts from yours truly.

me aka mstar; "Most planters were Christians and followed the Biblical pattern given by the Apostle Paul in "The Book Of "Philemon". There were some "Simon Legrees", but most evangelized their slaves providing houses of worship for regular churches services. The "Slave Narratives" provide a great glimpse into this.

The system was failing, the land exhausted, the industrial revolution was around the corner. Had time been given the antiquated system would have collapsed on its own with less bloodshed and emotional "baggage".

Below is a study on "The Book of Philemon" from "GotQuestions.org";

Author: The author of "The Book of Philemon" was the apostle Paul (Philemon 1:1).

Date of Writing: "The Book of Philemon" was written in approximately A. D. 60.

Purpose of Writing: The letter to Philemon is the shortest of all Paul's writings and deals with the practice of slavery. The letter suggests that Paul was in prison at the time of the writing.

Philemon was a slave owner who also hosted a church in his home. During the time of Paul's ministry in Ephesus, Philemon had likely journeyed to the city, heard Paul's preaching and became a Christian. The slave Onesimus robbed his master, Philemon, and ran away, making his way to Rome and to Paul. Onesimus was still the property of Philemon, and Paul wrote to smooth the way for his return to his master. Through Paul’s witnessing to him, Onesimus had become a Christian (Philemon 10) and Paul wanted Philemon to accept Onesimus as a brother in Christ and not merely as a slave.

Key Verses:

Philemon 6: "I pray that you may be active in sharing your faith, so that you will have a full understanding of every good thing we have in Christ.

" Philemon 16: "…no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."

Philemon 18: "If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me."

Brief Summary: Paul had warned slave owners that they had a responsibility towards their slaves and showed slaves as responsible moral beings who were to fear God.

In Philemon, Paul did not condemn slavery, but he presented Onesimus as a Christian brother instead of a slave. When an owner can refer to a slave as a brother, the slave has reached a position in which the legal title of slave is meaningless.

The early church did not attack slavery directly but it laid the foundation for a new relationship between owner and slave. Paul attempted to unite both Philemon and Onesimus with Christian love so that emancipation would become necessary. Only after exposure to the light of the gospel could the institution of slavery die.

Connections: Perhaps nowhere in the New Testament is the distinction between law and grace so beautifully portrayed.

Both Roman law and the Mosaic Law of the Old Testament gave Philemon the right to punish a runaway slave who was considered property. But the covenant of grace through the Lord Jesus allowed both master and slave to fellowship in love on an equal basis in the body of Christ."

"Paul would have liked to keep Onesimus with him. Paul, however, honored the social tie that bound a slave to his master and respected the duty Onesimus owed to Philemon, his master. Guided by the tenth commandment, which forbids coveting another man's worker, and by the law of love, Paul decided Onesimus should return to Philemon.
Paul was about to send Tychicus, a co-worker, to Colosse with a letter Paul had written to the church there. Philemon was a member of that church. Tychicus' traveling to Colosse offered Paul the opportunity to send Onesimus with Tychicus to Philemon.
Onesimus went willingly as a penitent Christian to seek his master's forgiveness and to return to his service in Philemon's household. Paul wrote his letter to Philemon and had Tychicus hand carry it to him.

Content Of The Letter To Philemon

In his letter Paul did not command Philemon to free his slave Onesimus. Rather, Paul commended Philemon for the loving compassion he showed to his fellow Christians and then interceded in Onesimus' behalf.

Paul pleaded that for love's sake Philemon would treat Onesimus kindly. Slaves, such as Onesimus, who were brought back to their masters were often treated most harshly and under Roman law could be killed. Paul noted that Philemon was having Onesimus come back to him as more than a slave but as a brother in Christ and fellow believer. Paul asked that Philemon would receive Onesimus as he would receive Paul himself. Since it was quite possible that Onesimus had wronged Philemon and was indebted to Philemon for what he had stolen, Paul even offered to have Philemon charge the debt to him so that Paul might repay him. In offering to repay Philemon for Onesimus' indebtedness, Paul reminded Philemon that he owed him his very life, for it appears that in some way as a result of Paul's gospel ministry Philemon had become a believer in Christ the Savior. In the course of his letter Paul hinted that he would very much like to have Onesimus back with him in Rome."

from "Christian Inconnect"

So "Battle Hymn Of The Republic" anyone? What do you mean it doesn't seem to "work" with all this scripture????? Well it IS kinda "catchy" and all . . . that "Glory, Glory" verse really does sound all spiritual and stuff. . . /s

physical liberty anytime in the next few centuries

Well, that's just speculation. Lee specifically stated that it was the will of Providence, which turned out to be much shorter than the time frame that you're referencing.

less likely to achieve spiritual liberty when they are physically enslaved?

It could be opposite, if you think about it.

Lee quite obviously and explicitly did NOT consider “all men to be created equal.

Where did he explicitly state this?