Army announces carbine competition details

Black Rifle.net ^ | Jan. 31, 2011 | Lance M. Bacon

[Sergio]

I just hope they come to a decision that they act on.

[catman67]

HK-93 was 5.56mm. HK-91 (G-3) was 7.62.

[re_tail20]

Me too.

With SOCOM moving on with their SCAR, and the Marines moving on with their new Infantry Assault Rifle - the M-27, peer pressure just might be the catalyst that causes the Army to finally stop screwing around and playing games when it comes to rifles and pistols - having the highest possible quality all the time and keeping up with upgrades as they occur over time.

[Noumenon]

Correct - I was looking at them both and reminsicing. I used to have a 91. Loved it, even though it fluted the brass.

[chuckles]

You basically made the .308 argument. 30-06 was a great round, but the .308 had similar ballistics, was smaller and lighter, and could be in a short bolt weapon. We have plenty of that round also. As for the .45, .........winner,..duh. If I had a 9mm in battle, it would probably do more damage if you threw the gun at them. If you just have to have a 9mm, go for the 357 Sig. Maybe it’s just me, but when my life is on the line, I want something that will go through car doors, house doors, a little armor, trees, bricks and so forth. The AK 47 has the ballistics of a 30-30 and it seems to be ok for every war in the world because the .30 cal bullet is heavy and you usually don’t shoot 100 yards. The .308 is just far superior for long ranges and penetration. M4 is a pop gun,IMHO. The M16 at least had a longer barrel and more speed. Cutting the barrel just takes any punch you may have and sacrifices it for compactness. If you are in a building, couldn’t you have your pistol out( if it is a .40 cal or above)? I don’t know, just random thoughts from a guy that loves to see bricks shatter and bark fly when he is shooting. .22’s are fun when your plinking, but I don’t consider soldiering, plinking.

[Jonah Hex]

It will be at least a 500-meter weapon...

Thsi is the phrase which worries me. Is this supposed to be 500 meters effective range or maximum range? Unless the RFP is written to specify, a smart contractor could use this ambiguity to tie up a competition reward in protest.

[Durus]

They are all piston rifles and therefore less accurate than the standard M16/AR15 independent of caliber of ammo used.

[NVDave]

That’s what my prediction is as well. They’ll spend millions in tax money, then announce that they are keeping the M-4.

[SIDENET]

I bet after all this talk, the Army just punts, keeps the M4 and calls it “improved”.

[SIDENET]

I’ll believe it when I see it. The military keeps studying alternatives to the M-4 and then cancels the programs after spending millions.

+1

[OneWingedShark]

Because the M-4 allows for lots of ‘development’ dollars to be spent rectifying design deficiencies.
[/cynic]

[SIDENET]

Yep, as a military guy, I know the value of keeping a piece of crap around for those improvements that provide a constant gravy train for the contractor.

In the USAF, I believe they call them "sustainment programs" or something of the sort.

[archy]

I wanna introduce you to a personal friend of mine. This is an M41A pulse rifle. Ten millimeter with over-and-under thirty millimeter pump action grenade launcher.

What does the red button on the bottom do?

[Joe 6-pack]

"Ehhh,, at one time when the army was interested in killing the enemy the standard was 30-06..."

The .30-06 was adopted when the ability to kill enemy cavalry mounts (i.e. horses) on the battlefield was a legitimate requirement.

I'm not taking anything away from the round or the weapons that fire it (IMHO, I think some type of BAR equivalent should be available at the squad level), but it's a little rough for a lot of female soldiers to shoot. That's just reality.

[PiperShade]

Of greater concern to me is logistics. If the military is going to a new rifle will its cartridge be compatible with being used in existing SAW-type belt-fed weapons ? I’m attracted to the Remington modular concept, but how “soldier proof” is it ? The advantages of even single-caliber modular designs are obvious, but ready bullet selection/optimisation for specific tasks might be even a better benefit to small unit commanders.

I tend to favor the 7mm caliber as if offers excellent ballistic profiles and a range of useful bullet weights and would certainly address the reputed “500 yd. range”, issue. With alloys, inserts and controlled-expansion options bullets can be tailored to the need and weapon profile. Of course that flexibility raises further logistics issues...... >PS

[ctdonath2]

The wild card caliber: 300 Blackout. New from Remington. Built for the battlefield.

[ctdonath2]

Maybe the problem in that calculation isn’t the caliber.

[Durus]

I’m curious what you see as design deficiencies.

[OneWingedShark]

I’m curious what you see as design deficiencies.

The big one, considering it is intended as a field weapon, is that it needs constant cleaning to function properly. Field conditions are, in a word, nasty. You're not going to be in a clean-room, but somewhere dry, and hot, and with sand/dirt blowing everywhere; or in the hot, wet jungle with plants (and the attendant sap/pollen/crap) everywhere; or maybe in a swamp with water and decaying bio-mass getting in all the cracks... the whole M-16/M-4 platform is extremely fickle about any dirt/grime anywhere. {I've seen it act funny because of too much CLP and carbon from firing.}

This is all compounded by the difficulty of field-stripping the weapon for cleaning: it has a lot of parts, some that are pretty small and will easily get lost in the above-mentioned environs.

To illustrate allow me to present several rifles, filed-stripped.

This is the M-4, almost-field-stripped (the buffer & buffer spring are still inside the lower reciever):

The M-1:

Rather a lot of small parts, but a larger round & I've not heard of it being described as finicky in-general.

AK-47:

A few small parts, but it has a reputation for always firing (i.e. working in field conditions).

This is the PS-90, field-stripped:

No really small parts, compact, light, and has 50-round magazines.

The Mosin-Nagant:

"What's field-stripping?"

[Durus]

I'm afraid I can't agree. Use a chrome bolt, or some other modern coating and it alleviates the majority of problems with the impingement system. The primary advantage of the impingement system is accuracy. Of the rifles and sub guns you have shown the M16/AR is the most accurate. Do you want a rifle that fires every time you pull the trigger but has limited accuracy, or a rifle that is effective to 400 yards (m4, m16 has a greater effective range, add a better caliber it's effective up to 1000 yards) that requires some basic maintenance. An AK, while dependable, has an effective range of 250 yards. In Afghanistan we can engage the enemy at ranges where their rifles are not effective while ours are...and that is with the anemic 5.56. Converting existing rifles to 6.5G or .264LBC is the most cost effective of upgrading and it produces a rifle that is unmatched in accuracy and range.