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Army Secretary Sees New Carbine to Replace M4
Kit Up ^ | March 31, 2010 | Christian Lowe

Posted on 04/08/2011 9:58:52 AM PDT by re_tail20

Kit Up spoke with Army Secretary John McHugh this morning at a round table interview with top defense scribes in DC.

I pinged him on the glacial pace of the improved carbine program (the replacement or redesign of the M4) and he seemed to indicate that while he sees the program as proceeding apace — given the requirements and bureaucratic hurdles with such a massive change — the end result will be a "replacement" of the M4, not just a revamped version, say, with a gas piston operating system or tweaked components.

We have a two part plan to over time replace the M4 with the next variant, whatever that may be. … We are working the requirements for a [request for proposals] for an eventual replacement of the M4 and a new generation of personal carbine.

Now, you'll remember that my friend Matt Cox over at Army Times got his hands on a briefing slide circulated by PEO Soldier Brig. Gen. Pete Fuller on the Hill showing the near-term improvements the service planned to make to the M4, including a heavier barrel, improved trigger pull, a gas piston system and ambidextrous controls.

A lot of gun watchers think this is a straw man that the Army will erect to impede the fielding of a real replacement for the M4 — that there's a large institutional pull in the service to wait until that "leap ahead" technology presents itself for a full-on replacement of the standard-issue carbine. I did sense some frustration with PM-level officials that this requirements process was getting bogged down (particularly on the subcompact weapon) and that some folks were impeding the process.

Not so, says McHugh:

(Excerpt) Read more at kitup.military.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist; m4
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1 posted on 04/08/2011 9:58:55 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: re_tail20

I’d like to try out an HK416/417.


2 posted on 04/08/2011 10:09:00 AM PDT by Sax
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To: re_tail20

You know the rule, pictures please.


3 posted on 04/08/2011 10:09:31 AM PDT by MrInvisible
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To: Sax

The FN SCAN, in both Light and Heavy versions, is out there NOW. You can buy one at a gun show, store or order one on-line.

I think the SCAR has some improvements over the HK416 and is already fielded by SOCOM.


4 posted on 04/08/2011 10:12:44 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

The HK416’s been in the field for years now. I don’t know how I feel about the idea of that reciprocating charging handle on the SCAR.


5 posted on 04/08/2011 10:17:33 AM PDT by Sax
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To: re_tail20

Are they going to keep the ground squirrel round(5.56MM)or will they go to a real caliber?


6 posted on 04/08/2011 10:19:16 AM PDT by calex59
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To: re_tail20

I think an AR-10 with gas piston would make most of these folks happy. I’ve shot this weapon and liken it to driving a Porshe after getting out of a Camaro...no comparing an AR-10 to M-4/M-16. More range, knockdown power and cleaner firing with no gas being used to operate the bolt. Can’t say anything about battle conditions but no weapon is perfect. Would you rather carry an inaccurate AK that shoots with mud on it or take care of your weapon and be able to protect yourself out to 600 yds? And since that is how far we need to carry the fight to the enemy now it makes perfect sense to field both weapons...AR-10’s in Afghanistan and M-4’s (in 6.8) in urban conflicts.


7 posted on 04/08/2011 10:33:51 AM PDT by vigilence
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To: SJSAMPLE

The SCAR scales from a carbine to a full battle rifle, with something like 80% interchangeable parts all around. It should at least be a contender.


8 posted on 04/08/2011 10:34:54 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: antiRepublicrat

I understand that they are issuing accurized AR-10s to snipers as a replacement for the M-14.

Also, I have heard that the SCAR-L has proved unreliable.

People are saying good things about the SCAR-H, though.


9 posted on 04/08/2011 10:45:43 AM PDT by catman67
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To: catman67

LaRue


10 posted on 04/08/2011 11:04:07 AM PDT by xander
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To: vigilence
Who makes an AR-10 platform with gas piston?

I've yet to see or hear of one.........

11 posted on 04/08/2011 1:23:15 PM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: re_tail20
Now, you'll remember that my friend Matt Cox over at Army Times got his hands on a briefing slide circulated by PEO Soldier Brig. Gen. Pete Fuller on the Hill showing the near-term improvements the service planned to make to the M4, including a heavier barrel, improved trigger pull, a gas piston system and ambidextrous controls.

Translation: getting read of the three-shot burst selector and its ratchet, and going back to full-auto.

12 posted on 04/08/2011 1:36:53 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Sax

The HK416 was tested, but the SCAR was fielded.

The 416 is more of a product improvement, while the SCAR is a completely new rifle.

THe charging handle bugs me too. I’ve been doing the math on a) building AR #4, b) buying a SCAR, or c) picking up the Bushmaster/MagPul ACR.

Still irked that the ACR has a fixed, molded grip, when MagPul made their bones on modularity. It still feels better than the SCAR, though.


13 posted on 04/08/2011 5:57:57 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: archy

That shouldn’t change the trigger, since the sear controls burst/auto.

You’ll only get a better trigger with a semi-auto configuration. Competition single stage or something like the Rock River two-stage. That will cut groups in half, minimum.


14 posted on 04/08/2011 6:04:17 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE
There are plenty of entities fielding the HK416 (including US Special Operations.) I am not saying that the reciprocating handle of the SCAR is a design weakness, I'm considering this from my perspective and what I would pay for. Sure that handle's not some grappling hooking cycling back and forth just looking to hang up on, or smash something, but it's also not a necessity in the class either. For my money, I'll say, I'll consider athsethics too. I also don't like the look of the folding stock, I'm a little suspicious of the hinge type folding construction as opposed to an in-line collapsable construction. I can't shake the concern that it might rattle loose with heavy use. But, overall, I'm absolutely certain the SCAR is a fine rifle - I'm not throwing digs at it - it just doesn't have the curb appeal and features that immediately grabbed me.
15 posted on 04/08/2011 6:33:29 PM PDT by Sax
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To: archy

Smoke and mirrors. There is no way the Army adopts a new carbine service wide. SpecOps gets the SCAR-H. Big Army gets bupkis.

What really needs to happen is ditching the 5.56mm for a better round. The 6.8 SPC is a step in the right direction but was hamstrung by the Army requiring it fit into a M-16 magazine. If you stretched that case out a couple more mm and use a better bullet the ballistics would really start to look sweet while still having a cartridge shape that feeds reliably and still has low recoil.

Plug that 6.8 enhanced round into the SCAR platform and you have a much superior carbine to the M-4.

Too bad it will never happen.


16 posted on 04/08/2011 6:34:33 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: MrInvisible
These are the contenders so far: Robinson Arms XCR M64 Remington / Bushmaster ACR FN SCAR Knights Armament SR-16 Colt Defense CM 901
17 posted on 04/08/2011 8:07:45 PM PDT by re_tail20
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To: MrInvisible
Sorry SCAR ACR XCR M6A4
18 posted on 04/08/2011 8:20:43 PM PDT by re_tail20
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To: SJSAMPLE
That shouldn’t change the trigger, since the sear controls burst/auto.

M16A2 trigger group:


19 posted on 04/08/2011 8:25:44 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: re_tail20

A Soldier’s rifle is made by the lowest bidder.

The challenge for FN, Remington-Bushmaster, and the others, will be to not just beat the M4 in tests, which will be the easy part, but to offer their better rifle at a lower price than the revamped M4.


20 posted on 04/08/2011 8:39:43 PM PDT by re_tail20
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To: re_tail20

LOGIC says: Add queers and females into the gun toting troops and you will have to reduce the weight of the weapons.


21 posted on 04/08/2011 9:12:08 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are .)
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To: archy

I mean the trigger pull.
Sorry.

I still don’t think there’s a good auto trigger out there.


22 posted on 04/09/2011 3:56:15 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: MrInvisible

There’s no picture to post because there’s no replacement yet.

It’s just an officer talking about what’s on his “wish list” for the future.


23 posted on 04/09/2011 4:00:59 AM PDT by airborne (Paratroopers - Good to the last drop!)
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To: re_tail20

Nice sampling!

I’ll take one of each please!


24 posted on 04/09/2011 4:02:26 AM PDT by airborne (Paratroopers - Good to the last drop!)
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To: re_tail20

Are these higher caliber rifles?

That’s the real issue I believe and
the secondary would be maintenance.

How do you feel about the SCAR?


25 posted on 04/09/2011 7:22:36 AM PDT by MrInvisible
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To: SJSAMPLE
I still don’t think there’s a good auto trigger out there.

There is, but it's not on an M16/A1/A2/M4.


26 posted on 04/09/2011 7:25:56 AM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: MrInvisible

The ACR and XCR are both 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, and 7.62 mm, as barrels and bolts for each caliber can be interchanged in their state of the art frames, unlike the M-16 and M-4, which are only 5.56 mm each.

The SCAR is interchangeable too, but only 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm as of right now.

Each of these is piston operated, and thus much more resistant to dirt, dust, mud, sand, and snow. unlike the M-16 and M-4 and their direct gas operation.

The 7.62 mm version of the SCAR is already in production and use with Special Operations Command, so it has a head start.


27 posted on 04/09/2011 9:08:09 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: B4Ranch
lol... sad but true. Next weapon will be based upon 22 rimfire!
28 posted on 04/09/2011 9:15:07 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: archy

The trigger’s great, if you can hold it on target ;)

I fired one of the Brits L2A1s back in the mid-1980s and the FA feature was practically useless, much like the M-14. Of course, it was a precursor to the SAW and worked OK if you sat on it.


29 posted on 04/10/2011 4:15:31 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/m14-enhanced-battle-rifle/


30 posted on 04/10/2011 4:21:57 PM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: re_tail20

Friday night I was watching footage of firefights in Aghanistan on Youtube and ran across a video of German troops engaged in combat. They had a futuristic looking rifle I believe called the G36. I also noticed a video of Swedish soldiers in a firefight and they had their own rifle which was unusual looking. Do you know anything about their rifles and if so, how do they compare to our M4?


31 posted on 04/11/2011 6:33:47 AM PDT by MrInvisible
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To: mad_as_he$$
lol... sad but true. Next weapon will be based upon 22 rimfire!

Not suggesting this for our combat troops, but a .22 rimfire that fired on full-auto only, at a high cyclic rate, would be a hell of a weapon. Think something like a Calico. You can carry 500 rounds of .22 LR IN the weapon, since a brick of 500 .22 LR only weighs between 3-4 pounds. At that weight-to-number of rounds ratio, 20 pounds of ammo works out to about six bricks.... 3,000 rounds. For comparison, 20 pounds of 5.56 only gives you 600 rounds.

32 posted on 04/11/2011 7:07:28 AM PDT by Terabitten ("Don't retreat. RELOAD!!" -Sarah Palin)
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To: Terabitten
The Marines were testing a full auto 22 a few years back. It was called something like the A-200. They were looking at it for dynamic entry stuff. Made short work of a wooden door.
33 posted on 04/11/2011 7:17:52 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: SJSAMPLE
The trigger’s great, if you can hold it on target ;)

I fired one of the Brits L2A1s back in the mid-1980s and the FA feature was practically useless, much like the M-14. Of course, it was a precursor to the SAW and worked OK if you sat on it.

I taught the NATO weapons familiarization course at the 5th Army NCO Academt at Bad Tolz in Germany during the mid-1960s, including the British small arms in use by the British Army of the Rhine. All the British L1A1 rifles I had available- about 30- were semi-auto only, the Brits using their rechambered L4 Bren Guns or L7 A2 beltfeds, known as the Gimp. The Brits routinely referred to the L1A1 as the SLR [pronounced *slur*] for *self-loading rifle. Most of the Brits who got to try the German G1 version of the FN-FAL or the H&K G3 on full chat figured out pretty quickly why their L1A1s were semi-only, and blessed their Brens. I ran into a couple of *old hand* senior NCOs who had used early FALs before the British were producing their own rifles {at Enfield and the BSA motorbike works] in North Africa who were quite happy with the full-auto option for the FAL, as were the Gurkhas, who kept their burst very short, two or three rounds at most.

The Australians also used their own version of the L1A1, but some of these had the full-auto selector and ejector block fitted, as did all of their L2A1 heavy-barrel autorifle versions of the L1A1. That may be the version you recall, or there may have been some full-auto L1A1s in use outside the NATO areas of Europe. But not with BAOR, in my experience.

34 posted on 04/11/2011 2:11:35 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Terabitten
Not suggesting this for our combat troops, but a .22 rimfire that fired on full-auto only, at a high cyclic rate, would be a hell of a weapon. Think something like a Calico. You can carry 500 rounds of .22 LR IN the weapon, since a brick of 500 .22 LR only weighs between 3-4 pounds. At that weight-to-number of rounds ratio, 20 pounds of ammo works out to about six bricks.... 3,000 rounds. For comparison, 20 pounds of 5.56 only gives you 600 rounds.

Note that the standard M2A1 .50-caliber size ammo can, which holds 105 rounds of .50 M2, 840 rounds of 5,56mm or 1000 rounds of M1911 .45 ball, will very nicely carry about 5000 rounds of .22 Long Rifle. Often, it's the bulk of the ammo as much as its weight that causes the difficulties.

By the way: the Calico M100 comes with either a 50 or 1000- round helical magazine fitted as standard. And I've seen one with a 3-shot burst trigger, so one that would give five or ten rounds per trigger pull would seem equally possible. Add in a compact flash and sound suppressor, and you'd have a pretty neat tool for quiet work in the dark.

35 posted on 04/11/2011 2:17:48 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: MrInvisible
Friday night I was watching footage of firefights in Aghanistan on Youtube and ran across a video of German troops engaged in combat. They had a futuristic looking rifle I believe called the G36. I also noticed a video of Swedish soldiers in a firefight and they had their own rifle which was unusual looking. Do you know anything about their rifles and if so, how do they compare to our M4?

They work well enough that the guards at the Pentagon use them. So too do several Special Ops groups who can use ANYTHING they want, and the Mexican Army has set up a plant to manufacture a copy of the things, which they call the Xiuhcoatl or FX-05. Which means we'll be seeing them used in drug gang hits in the U.S. Southwest along the border before too long.

By the way: don't sell the Korean K11 short, either.


36 posted on 04/11/2011 2:46:32 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy

Way cool.


37 posted on 04/11/2011 3:27:22 PM PDT by MrInvisible
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To: doorgunner69

Check out Patriot Ordnance Factory...P308. Awesome.


38 posted on 04/13/2011 10:51:08 AM PDT by vigilence
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To: archy

They appear (to me at least) that they are setup for suppressors. Are they?


39 posted on 04/14/2011 8:46:17 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are .)
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To: B4Ranch
They appear (to me at least) that they are setup for suppressors. Are they?

The G36 is. And I'd suspect that it's very likely that the Mexican FX-05 Xiuhcoatl is too; it's development was followed VERY closely by the Mexican Special Forces community, who had input into its design. And the Mexican boffins are working on an air-burst grenade delivery system for it similiar to the US XM25; whether a 25mm like the US version, a 20mm like the Korean, or other is unclear at this time. But I suspect that once in the hands of troops, the Zetas drug gang hitmen will have them shoirtly thereafter.

40 posted on 04/15/2011 11:41:17 AM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy

I’m guessing the suppressor that envelopes the barrel. Saw one the other day that really impressed me. It had a sleeve inside that came out, split into two pieces and then the interior actual suppressing apparatus was a third piece. Can’t imagine anything easier to clean. All told there were six pieces.


41 posted on 04/15/2011 1:17:53 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are .)
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To: archy

Found it on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAg4mi-cPHY&feature=related


42 posted on 04/15/2011 1:28:31 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Allowing Islam into America is akin to injecting yourself with AIDS to prove how tolerant you are .)
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To: B4Ranch
I’m guessing the suppressor that envelopes the barrel. Saw one the other day that really impressed me. It had a sleeve inside that came out, split into two pieces and then the interior actual suppressing apparatus was a third piece. Can’t imagine anything easier to clean. All told there were six pieces.

Looks like a nice little can. I don't know how many pieces my old Sionics .45 can had, hundreds, I suppose, if you count all the brass boot grommets it used as *random baffles* that most users replaced with a wrapped section of brass screen cloth.

43 posted on 04/16/2011 2:21:56 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: B4Ranch
I’m guessing the suppressor that envelopes the barrel.

Known in the biz as a Reflex suppressor, as per the Finnish designs of J. Hartikka, pioneered in Europe by BR Tuote.

The one they make for the M107/M87 Barrett .50 rifles is the most effective I've tried, and gives me some interesting thoughts about the 20mm Lahti.

44 posted on 04/16/2011 2:40:41 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Terabitten

That’s basically what the FN P90 is.


45 posted on 06/15/2011 11:45:16 AM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: Terabitten

Haven’t you just described a P90?


46 posted on 06/15/2011 11:50:30 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: ctdonath2

GMTA!


47 posted on 06/15/2011 11:51:03 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: SJSAMPLE
The FN SCAN, in both Light and Heavy versions, is out there NOW. You can buy one at a gun show, store or order one on-line.

Or pick up a slightly-used FN-2000 from a dead Libyan Army Loyalist. Sometimes, "combat-proven+ is not a good thing.


48 posted on 06/16/2011 1:36:59 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy

I really, really wanted one of those for a while, but a buddy bought one and after firing one, I thought it was a bit bulky and not nearly as ergonomic as the AUG. That model in the picture as all the bells and whistles. Nice.


49 posted on 06/16/2011 1:45:07 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Terabitten

American 180

http://www.elmfg.com/am180/articles/mgn12-95.html


50 posted on 06/16/2011 2:17:57 PM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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