Researchers find link between common dietary fat, intestinal microbes and heart disease

Lerner Research Institute ^ | April 6, 2011 | Unknown

[editor-surveyor]

>> “The way I’m reading it, excess Lecithin (usually in supplements and food additives) when combined with gut flora is metabolized into an artery plaque.” <<

.
Its nonsense!

Lecithin is present in most nuts, seeds and legumes. Its also present in all milk before it is heated. This is more psuedo science from the masters of grant applications.

[spunkets]

Re: "supplementation with choline or TMAO promoted atherosclerosis."

"That quote I gave in post #34 is from the abstract, not the article."

OK. Both say essentially the same thing, but in order for it to be true, gut bugs must work on the choline to produce at least TMAO. That conditional is present in both this article and the original article in Nature and it is- without the action of the gut bugs on choline, choline supplementation, or excess dietary choline has no effect on CVD.

[neverdem]

Who’s Ottobani?

[neverdem]

OK. Both say essentially the same thing, but in order for it to be true, gut bugs must work on the choline to produce at least TMAO.

No, it's when the bugs metabolize phosphatidylcholine, an ester, they produce TMAO, betaine and choline. Part of the metabolim is the reverse of the reaction shown below. A fair amount of the choline is used to regenerate the neurotransmiiter acetylcholine which is used in many parts of the nervous system including parts ennervating the gut.

Organic caids and alcohols make esters, as in polyesters. Phosphatidylcholine will get hydrolyzed, i.e. add water, the reverse reaction, yielding phosphatidic acid and choline in the presence of an enzyme.

[spunkets]

Re: "OK. Both say essentially the same thing, but in order for it to be true, gut bugs must work on the choline to produce at least TMAO."

"No, it's when the bugs metabolize phosphatidylcholine, an ester...

Yes. That pathway just produces choline. The original paper only worked with choline for the particular conclusion and conditional I mentioned. Here's the link to hte abstract I gave above in post #33, that includes the finding for dietary choline, which does not include any dietary phosphatidylcholine: From the Abstract: "Suppression of intestinal microflora in atherosclerosis-prone mice inhibited dietary-choline-enhanced atherosclerosis."

[stripes1776]

mark

[Mase]

I agree with the others who say this is a poorly written article. It looks to me like this is all based on what happens in mice. They assume that the same happens in humans with no evidence that it does, then go on to claim all sorts of actions to be taken in human diets based on that assumption. If I’m reading this right, then that is quite a stretch.

[Poincare]

Wild salmon is available and is labeled as such if you can trust your purveyor. “Atlantic Salmon” is farmed and usually dyed pink. The Palins caught and sold wild Alaskan salmon, the best. Enjoy.

[mlo]

"Solution today: stay away from “juiced up” meat and get your vitamins (lecithin and choline) in a naturally occurring form while they are still contained in plants and animals, the less cooked the better - Quarter Pounders seven days a week will not keep you healthy and and vitamin pills ontop of that might make you worse than no vitamins at all."

No, not quite. The connection with supposedly "juiced up" meant was speculative. But the connection with fruit, vegetables and fish was not.

"Healthy amounts of choline, betaine and TMAO are found in many fruits, vegetables and fish."

A "healthy amount" would depend on how much was in the specific vegetable and how much you ate.

About the meat, "...whether muscle from such livestock have higher levels of these compounds remains unknown."

Avoiding the Quarter Pounders and filling up on vegetables instead may have precisely the opposite effect you intend.

That's just taking the comments here at face value, which may not be justified.