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Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas without due process?
NBC News ^ | September 3,.2011 | Pete Williams

Posted on 09/30/2011 6:48:51 PM PDT by chuckee

Sources to NBC News are reporting Samir Khan, editor of Inspire Magazine, is another American citizen that was killed in the air strike in Yemen, along with Anwar al-Awlaki. NBC's Bob Windrem reports.

By Pete Williams, NBC News justice correspondent

Is it legal for the federal government to kill a U.S. citizen overseas, someone who has never been charged or convicted of a crime? Civil liberties groups are condemning the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, but many legal scholars say it is justified.

No U.S. court has ever weighed in on the question, because judges consider these sorts of issues exclusively matters for the president.

Anwar al-Awlaki's father, Nasser, with the help of the ACLU, sued President Barack Obama, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and CIA Director Leon Panetta a year ago, when it became clear that the U.S. was targeting the younger al-Awlaki. But U.S. District Judge John Bates threw the case out, ruling that federal courts were in no position to evaluate whether someone was a terrorist whose activities threatened national security and against whom the use of deadly force could be justified...

(Excerpt) Read more at openchannel.msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; Military/Veterans; Miscellaneous
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It was the CIA/Pentagon complex' idea to target al-Awaki with a laser guided bomb.I can see where Eric Holder might object and where the Pentagon agreed to paste his Miranda warnings to the ordinance to shut Holder up.
1 posted on 09/30/2011 6:48:53 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: chuckee

I believe we just proved we can.


2 posted on 09/30/2011 6:50:20 PM PDT by keat
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To: keat

Let’s ask the “victim”. LOL


3 posted on 09/30/2011 6:51:10 PM PDT by cripplecreek (A vote for Amnesty is a vote for a permanent Democrat majority. ..Choose well.)
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To: keat

Can we? Yes.

May we? I guess its ok, but it sure makes me feel uneasy.


4 posted on 09/30/2011 6:51:41 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (I just don't like anything about the President. And I don't think he's a nice guy.)
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To: chuckee

Just send a cop over, they don’t need due process.


5 posted on 09/30/2011 6:51:56 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: chuckee

OH boo hoo


6 posted on 09/30/2011 6:52:26 PM PDT by shield ((Rev 2:9 Woe unto those who say they are Judahites and are not, but are of the syna GOG ue of Satan.)
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To: chuckee

The short answer is... No. It is illegal for the federal government of the United States to kill a citizen without trial and conviction.


7 posted on 09/30/2011 6:52:45 PM PDT by ColdSteelTalon (Light is fading to shadow, and casting its shroud over all we have known...)
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To: chuckee
Simple answer, yes. He was a traitor and clearly had given up citizenship when he joined Al Qaeda. I think for him the way he died was too merciful.
8 posted on 09/30/2011 6:52:55 PM PDT by Patrick1 ("The problem with Internet quotations is that many are not genuine." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: chuckee

Yes we can.


9 posted on 09/30/2011 6:53:03 PM PDT by trumandogz
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To: chuckee

I think your question has been answered in a most delightful way. Calling this thing an American is a insult to logic.


10 posted on 09/30/2011 6:53:03 PM PDT by TwoSwords (Has anyone seen my suspension of disbelief pills?)
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To: chuckee

I could see one point in all this, they should have stripped his citizenship....what I don’t know is if he would have to be present because he was born in the US.

I feel that we should be stripping 100s of citizenships a week from people for violations of law and treason.


11 posted on 09/30/2011 6:54:00 PM PDT by dila813
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To: Vermont Lt

:) A first grade nun’s voice popped into my head with her can vs may argument after reading the headline. The empirical evidence suggests we ‘can.’


12 posted on 09/30/2011 6:54:16 PM PDT by posterchild
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To: chuckee

Is the man legally dead?

I rest my case.


13 posted on 09/30/2011 6:55:04 PM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: chuckee

Makes me think of the Civil War. Where was the ACLU back then?


14 posted on 09/30/2011 6:56:17 PM PDT by petitfour
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To: chuckee
He's not a citizen, under action of USC 8, Sec. 1481.

As a member of Al-Qaeda he took a loyalty oath to that organization, which holds itself to be at war with the U.S. Under (2) and (3) he had renounced his American citizenship rights and had no Constitutional rights. Poof. He made himself into a free fire zone. I hope he enjoyed it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1481.html

15 posted on 09/30/2011 6:58:32 PM PDT by Cheburashka (If life hands you lemons, government regulations will prevent you from making lemonade.)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

Tell it to the thousands dead in civil war cemeteries all over the eastern United States. As far as I know there wasn’t any attempt to arrest and prosecute rebels. They were simply shot and killed. Were they not?


16 posted on 09/30/2011 6:58:47 PM PDT by John Valentine
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To: Vermont Lt

Really? Ron Paul is a effing moron. I don’t care who is POTUS killing the enemy is a good thing.


17 posted on 09/30/2011 6:59:17 PM PDT by KSCITYBOY
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To: dila813

See post #15. He stripped himself of U.S. citizenship by his own actions.


18 posted on 09/30/2011 7:00:21 PM PDT by Cheburashka (If life hands you lemons, government regulations will prevent you from making lemonade.)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

“The short answer is... No. It is illegal for the federal government of the United States to kill a citizen without trial and conviction.”

I heard Krauthammer today cite the legal argument on the other side that we killed plenty of citizens during the civil war because the union never recognized the confederacy, still considered confederates US citizens who were “insurgents”.


19 posted on 09/30/2011 7:00:39 PM PDT by chuckee
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To: chuckee

As long as you don’t elect him as president first... it’s ok.


20 posted on 09/30/2011 7:01:25 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: chuckee

The basis for the question is incorrect.

This dude was not engaged in simple acts of criminal nature. If he was, then he was certainly owed due process and a trial.

He was actively engaged in acts of war against the United States. The only thing owed here was elimination.


21 posted on 09/30/2011 7:02:59 PM PDT by Jonty30
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To: chuckee

If it is a battlefield/conflict situation and that citizen is on the other side, yes, yes they can. BTW, our Constitution does not apply in foreign lands that would be colonialism and the ACLU-leftists usually oppose that.... most of the time.


22 posted on 09/30/2011 7:03:44 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Happiness)
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To: chuckee
Can U.S. legally kill a citizen overseas without due process?

If you, by direct combat action or non-combat planning and support, wage war against the U.S., you are an enemy combatant and can be legally killed.

Next question.

So, the Vichy French forces could legally kill the Free French forces, and vice versa, for the same reason?

Yes. Next question.

So, the Union forces could legally kill the Confederate forces, and vice versa, for the same reason?

Yes. Next question.

23 posted on 09/30/2011 7:05:52 PM PDT by Polybius (Defeating Obama is Priority Number One)
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To: ColdSteelTalon
No. It is illegal for the federal government of the United States to kill a citizen without trial and conviction

Sez who?

The President, when waging war, is free to attack any enemy abroad. If Congress thinks that he has waged war against American citizens without cause, it can impeach him. I'm sure Ron Paul is willing to introduce articles of impeachment, against B.O. for killing this guy. Perhaps Dennis Kucinich will support the resolution. The House can vote on it, and it will lose 433-2. That is due process.

24 posted on 09/30/2011 7:06:35 PM PDT by Pilsner
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To: chuckee

What a stupid thing to arghue over.

This man needed killing.

Now get Muckie.


25 posted on 09/30/2011 7:08:11 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: ColdSteelTalon

The key word in the question was “legally”. ColdSteelTalon has the correct answer to that question. Should the question have had the word “justified” in place of legally, then the answer would have been no.


26 posted on 09/30/2011 7:09:39 PM PDT by Carl from Marietta
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To: ColdSteelTalon

The key word in the question was “legally”. ColdSteelTalon has the correct answer to that question. Should the question have had the word “justified” in place of legally, then the answer would have been yes.


27 posted on 09/30/2011 7:10:27 PM PDT by Carl from Marietta
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To: ColdSteelTalon
The short answer is... No. It is illegal for the federal government of the United States to kill a citizen without trial and conviction.

The Union and Confederate Lawyers Duke It Out in Court


28 posted on 09/30/2011 7:11:11 PM PDT by Polybius (Defeating Obama is Priority Number One)
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To: chuckee

Legally or not, he’s sho nuff dead


29 posted on 09/30/2011 7:12:13 PM PDT by Figment ("A communist is someone who reads Marx.An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx" R Reagan)
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To: keat

Yes, if the target declares he is at war with the U.S. and commits acts of war against the U.S. This is not complicated.


30 posted on 09/30/2011 7:13:43 PM PDT by Havisham
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To: chuckee

That’s the best way in my opinion!


31 posted on 09/30/2011 7:16:43 PM PDT by Randy Larsen (I Stand With Sarah, but Herman is winning my vote!)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

Even a citizen can’t attempt acts of war against America and expect criminal due process. The Constitution is not a suicide pact.


32 posted on 09/30/2011 7:17:55 PM PDT by Havisham
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To: chuckee

We at at war.
In war the goal is to kill the enemy.
The man was the enemy.
He was killed.
Sounds good to me.............


33 posted on 09/30/2011 7:20:01 PM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the New American Revolution and the Crusades 2012?)
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To: Pilsner
If Congress thinks that [The President] has waged war against American citizens without cause, it can impeach him.

Bingo! That is the remedy. Thus, it would probably take a heinous due process violation, or a series of them, in order for the Chief Executive to ever be held accountable.

It doesn't mean that this practice is the best idea though. I, for one, have some pretty serious misgivings about such policy, and the potential undesirable consequences of its broad application against more sympathetic rebellious elements of society. As Americans, we should never be too dismissive of the assertion that Constitutional due process may have been violated...

34 posted on 09/30/2011 7:21:03 PM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these "boncentration bamps")
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To: chuckee

Obama can do anything he wants to do, no one cares, nobody tries to stop him. All media is in the tank including Fox News for the chosen one. Congress is worthless the GOP is weak. The only one standing up gets blasted by both sides.


35 posted on 09/30/2011 7:21:55 PM PDT by Brimack34 (Sarah will stop Obama)
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To: Pilsner
The President, when waging war, is free to attack any enemy abroad.

The USA are not in a state of war with any country on this planet.

The problem here is that if this reasoning stands then the President can order *anyone* killed at any time for any reason. All he needs to do is "determine" that John Q. Public is an agent of AQ. The reasons will be forever secret. That's exactly how Stalin's NKVD operated.

All bad ideas are sneaked in this way. You find a case that nobody can support (CP, for example) and make a new law. There are bad people in the country that "need killing" but that doesn't allow a vigilante or an LEO to hunt them down and terminate. We arrest them and put them on trial. If they are found guilty they get their punishment.

In this particular case an LEO hunted a person down and killed him without a trial. Again, that particular person may have been a bad guy and ultimately should have been removed from the society, one way or another. However he haven't had his day in court. Tomorrow another US citizen, an innocent one, will be similarly killed because of a mistake. If he had a trial he'd show his innocence. But there was no trial. This is a troubling precedent. If this stands, all I can say is "Welcome to GULAG, US style." We will be all one signature away from execution.

36 posted on 09/30/2011 7:24:57 PM PDT by Greysard
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To: chuckee

If you join a foreign army at war with the USA, you can expect to die like a member of a foreign army at war with the USA.


37 posted on 09/30/2011 7:32:54 PM PDT by Meet the New Boss (The pain from Cain falls mainly on Hussein)
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To: chuckee
Cracks me up to see the left with their panties in a wad over this.

So, let's say a bunch of German Americans in 1939 went to Germany and become Nazi soldiers...should we shoot the hell out of 'em just like the rest of the Nazis?

Weird that anyone even has to ask the question.

38 posted on 09/30/2011 7:39:22 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: chuckee

Ask all the nazi americans
who went to fight for the fatherland in WWII.


39 posted on 09/30/2011 7:43:33 PM PDT by sharkhawk (Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall.)
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To: Greysard

The USA are not in a state of war with any country on this planet.

_________________________________________

Al Quada declared war on the USA. I do not recall a cease fire or a peace treaty. They are open season.


40 posted on 09/30/2011 7:45:31 PM PDT by o-n-money
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To: keat

“Yes We Can!”


41 posted on 09/30/2011 7:51:24 PM PDT by John 3_19-21 (A lie told over and over again is still just a lie and the one telling it a liar.)
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To: chuckee

Yes, we Khan!


42 posted on 09/30/2011 7:51:33 PM PDT by Blado (Audemus jura nostra defendere)
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To: Vermont Lt
He renounced his citizenship...even if/though he probably didn't go through the legal motions to do so.

Therefore, phock him. Rest easy, for crying out loud.

43 posted on 09/30/2011 7:52:44 PM PDT by ErnBatavia (Obama Voters: Jose Baez wants YOU for his next jury pool.......)
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To: KSCITYBOY

I agree with Ron Paul on about 80% of his issues, but boy, that other 20% is something else.


44 posted on 09/30/2011 7:57:50 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Patrick1

Agree to that! If a citizen has betrayed his country, he is an enemy soldier and does not warrant justice other than his death.

Bat


45 posted on 09/30/2011 8:08:28 PM PDT by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
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To: chuckee

Police have the authority to use lethal force against a citizen if he is actively posing a danger to public safety.

In my opinion, this is no different.

/I have no problem with this.


46 posted on 09/30/2011 8:12:19 PM PDT by MDspinboyredux
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To: chuckee

If you engage in unlawful rebellion and treason, yes.

He waged war against the government of the United States with the intended purpose of overthrowing it and imposing in it’s place an Islamic state, an act unlawful rebellion. It is not relevant how remote the chance of him succeeding was, he clearly committed the act.

He also committed treason per Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution:

“Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.”

Had he been captured he would have been remanded to the civilian court system to face a charge of treason, but since he was killed by the United States Air Force in battle, he is a casualty of war.


47 posted on 09/30/2011 8:14:26 PM PDT by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: chuckee

Mr. Anwar al-Awlaki pretty much was no longer an American citizen, since he gave up that privilege when he took up arms against the U.S. and became an enemy combatant. As an enemy, he was fair game, and at least he is no longer game!


48 posted on 09/30/2011 8:14:47 PM PDT by Ranger Warrior ("To stand in silence when they should be protesting makes cowards out of men." - Abraham Lincoln)
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To: Patrick1

But moreso, he wasn’t ever an American citizen. When he was born his student parents added his name to their family visa as required by law.

Note that American citizens don’t need visas.


49 posted on 09/30/2011 8:22:26 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Greysard
We may not be in a state of war with any country but if, for example, North Korea invades South Korea we will destroy them utterly.

The issue here is that whether we are at war or not, the other guys are at war with us. They want to kill you. I am sorry they did not get around to try it so you could be personally convinced of that, but that's what they do.

We had them in this neighborhood. On 9/11 they were the ground support team for the air attack on the Pentagon and Capitol Hill.

For the most part they failed but should they have been killed on sight?

SURE.

They should still be shot down like the dogs they are ON SIGHT. This guy was their leader. He could have arranged to surrender and begun negotiations to cease hostilities.

He didn't do that.

50 posted on 09/30/2011 8:28:17 PM PDT by muawiyah
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