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To: Mr. K
I'll give you one intermediate species you can find in your garden now.

A rattlesnake.

The pit in pit viper is a living example of about half the steps towards an infra red eye.

Light (IR) sensitive cells. Advantage: knows something warm nearby. (for visible, knows if it's day or night, knows when a predator's shadow looms over).
Gathered in a patch. Advantage: more sensitive detection.
Patch curved to make a cup. Advantage: self shadowing gives some sense of directionality.
Cup pinches in to make a pin hole camera. Advantage: actual crude image formation.
Pinhole gets transparent cover. Advantage: protects imaging surface from damage, accumulated crud.
Transparent cover thickens into lens. Advantage: sharper image.
Specialized skin muscles learn to distort lens. Advantage: Ability to focus on details.

We call the resulting miraculous structure an eye

I am expressing my opinion (as an actual scientist)

Creation Science?

For those actually interested in an accessible account of the workings of evolution I recommend Sean B. Carroll's "The Making of the Fittest"

34 posted on 12/27/2011 10:22:11 AM PST by null and void (Day 1070 of America's ObamaVacation from reality [Heroes aren't made, Frank, they're cornered...])
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To: null and void

The infrared sensor is the beginning of an evolving eye?

What about a snake’s REAL eyes? Is it ‘evolving’ a new one?

And what about the steps between becoming an infrared sensor and an eyeball ?

show me a few dead bodies that have such intermediary steps?

The infrared sensor is already ‘evolved’ - into an infrared sensor.

imagine just ONE of your steps- “Transparent cover thickens into lens. Advantage: sharper image.” All the stpes to thicken a lens are useless until the lens thickens. You sort of need the whole thing at once for it to ba an kind of evolutionary advantage.

So... show me some dead bodies that have those previous steps you mentions?

It sounds great in theory- now show me some proof of it, somewhere. I have no proof about God creating everything either- so my theory is equally valid, without proof, as yours. Except that your fails for complex structures that need to be 100% formed to work at all.


35 posted on 12/27/2011 10:32:10 AM PST by Mr. K (Physically unable to profreed <--- oops, see?)
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To: null and void; Mr. K
Light (IR) sensitive cells. Advantage: knows something warm nearby. (for visible, knows if it's day or night, knows when a predator's shadow looms over).

OK. Development of a few IR sensitive spots might happen.

Gathered in a patch. Advantage: more sensitive detection.
Patch curved to make a cup. Advantage: self shadowing gives some sense of directionality.

However, cupping, until it is complete and protected, provides a place for dirt to gather, thus blocking the sensitive cells.

This requires a further change in biology (some sort of cleansing system such as tears) or behavior (instinctive grooming). These changes won't happen until the light sensitive spot has shown itself to be useful. And it cannot show itself to be useful until it is properly integrated into the brain. Which requires growth or specialization of nerves and brain structures to interpret the new data (heat). So everything has to develop at the same time for there to be any advantage to the new sensitive cells.

Cup pinches in to make a pin hole camera. Advantage: actual crude image formation. Pinhole gets transparent cover. Advantage: protects imaging surface from damage, accumulated crud.

Here's where it really goes wrong since we are dealing with IR. There is no transparent biological material to IR. (Most current IR devices use germanium lenses. There is a small body of other materials that are IR transparent, but I've not been able to find any biological ones.) No IR device can "see" through skin. (We can see the heat shadow cast upon the skin from objects in very close proximity to it. That is, if the object is touching the skin or within say 1/4" of it, further if hotter.)

So any "transparent cover" would totally negate any benefit derived from the IR sensitive cells. They'd die off in a few generations as utterly useless.

Transparent cover thickens into lens. Advantage: sharper image.

If we assume visual spectrum sensitivity instead of IR then this "transparent cover" also degrades performance (loss of fine directionality, loss of focus) of the light sensitive cells until a full lens is formed. Looking through a sheet of saran wrap is a whole lot worse than looking through a proper lens.

It is possible to have a light sensitive spot of cells. It is possible to have a fully functioning eye. There's just no way to gradually get from the first to the second.

Specialized skin muscles learn to distort lens.
Advantage: Ability to focus on details.

So we need to evolve muscles (which of course have a different cell type than skin does) where the DNA doesn't have any muscles. We need to grow more nerves and more brain structures to control these muscles. I just don't see this happening by accident.

We call the resulting miraculous structure an eye

About the only part of this you have correct is that the eye is "miraculous". Caused by a miracle. In other words, created.

51 posted on 12/28/2011 6:39:05 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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