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To: Jonty30
There’s nothing wrong or guilt-generating about having an accurate understanding of history.

Yes, and I am disputing your historical claims in the interest of "accurate understanding". It is quite easy to look back, 70 years or so later, and say what should have been done in hindsight, with full knowledge of all implications, and then judge a country based on the fact that they didn't act 70 years ago with the knowledge one has now. If you had asked the average American, or even the average politician, back in the 1930s whether they believed the Europeans capable of shuffling Jews into gas chambers and slaughtering them by the thousands, you would have been met with an incredulous stare, as if you were a complete lunatic. Read the accounts of the soldiers who liberated the camps - they couldn't believe what they saw, they didn't think it possible. Certainly the civilians back home, before the US even entered the war, could not have believed it possible. It is in that light that you'd have to understand that a ship full of Jews from Europe in the 1930s would have been viewed as just another ship of eager immigrants - nothing else.

Trying to hang the guilt of actions taken by the very people who many American men died to stop around the neck of those same Americans is a reprehensible act of slavishness to anti-American cultural Marxism.
60 posted on 01/28/2012 9:15:14 PM PST by fr_freak
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To: fr_freak

I’m not trying to hang the guilt on anybody.

I simply find history and everything about interesting. At least for me, it’s not about assigning blame to anybody.

And you probably correct that it was inconceivable that any soldier could do that to any populace or that the average German person, at the time, could load people up into cattle cars.

It’s a distant enough past, for all intents and purposes that I can read about it with the same objective viewpoint that I could read about what the Romans did to their conquered populations.


63 posted on 01/28/2012 9:25:42 PM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: fr_freak

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/march.html

...So it was that on October 6, 1943, more than 400 Orthodox rabbis, accompanied by marshals from the Jewish War Veterans of America, marched solemnly from Union Station to their first stop, the Capitol. Vice President Henry A. Wallace and a large bipartisan delegation of Congressional leaders received them. While passersby gawked and newsmen snapped photos, the rabbis recited the Kaddish; sang the traditional Jewish prayer for the nation’s leaders to the tune of the “Star Spangled Banner”; and solemnly read aloud, in English and Hebrew, their petition calling for the creation of a special Federal agency to rescue European Jewry and expand the limited quota on Jewish refugee immigration to the United States. Time Magazine commented that, on receiving the petition, Vice President Wallace “squirmed through a diplomatically minimal answer.” The rabbis then marched from the Capitol to the White House.

On the advice of his aides, FDR, who was scheduled to attend a military ceremony, intentionally avoided the rabbis by leaving the White. House through a rear exit while they marched silently in front. When Roosevelt’s decision not to encounter the rabbis became known to the press, reporters interpreted Roosevelt’s actions as a snub, adding a dramatic flair that transformed the protest rally into a full-fledged clash between the rabbis and the administration...


64 posted on 01/28/2012 9:31:06 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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When Herbert Lehman, Franklin Roosevelt’s successor as governor of New York, wrote the president on two occasions in 1935 and 1936 about the difficulties German Jews were having in getting visas from American consulates, Roosevelt assured him, in responses drafted by the State Department, that consular officials were carrying out their duties “in a considerate and humane manner.” Irrefutable evidence exists in a number of places to demonstrate that, to the contrary, many officials of the Department of State at home and abroad consistently made it difficult and in many cases impossible for fully eligible refugees to obtain visas. One example will have to stand as surrogate for hundreds of demonstrable cases of consular misfeasance and malfeasance. Hebrew Union College (HUC) in Cincinnati, the oldest Jewish seminary in America, had a Refugee Scholars Project that between 1935 and 1942 brought eleven such scholars to its campus. The 1924 immigration act specifically exempted from quota restriction professors and ministers of any religion as well as their wives and minor children. There should have been no difficulties on the American end in bringing the chosen scholars to Cincinnati. But in almost every case the State Department and especially Avra M. Warren, head of the visa division, raised difficulties, some of which seem to have been invented. In some instances the college, often helped by the intervention of influential individuals, managed to overcome them. In two instances, however, the college was unsuccessful.

The men involved were Arthur Spanier and Albert Lewkowitz. Spanier had been the Hebraica librarian at the Prussian State Library, and after the Nazis dismissed him, a teacher at the Hochschule für die Wissenschaft des Judentums. After Kristallnacht in November 1938, Spanier was sent to a concentration camp. The guaranteed offer of an appointment was enough to get him released from the camp but not enough to get him an American visa. The president of Hebrew Union College had to go to Washington even to discover why this was the case. Warren explained that the rejection was because Spanier’s principal occupation was as a librarian and because after 1934 the Nazis had demoted the Hochschule (a general term for a place of higher education) to a Lehranstalt (educational institute), and an administrative regulation of the State Department not found in the statute held that a nonquota visa could not be given to a scholar coming to a high status institute in the United States from one of lower status abroad. Lewkowitz, a teacher of philosophy at the Breslau Jewish Theological Seminary, did get an American visa in Germany. Both men were able to get to the Netherlands and were there when the Germans invaded. The German bombing of Rotterdam destroyed Lewkowitz’s papers, and American consular officials there insisted that he get new documents from Germany, an obviously impossible requirement. Visaless, both men were sent to the Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Lewkowitz was one of the few concentration camp inmates exchanged, and he reached Palestine in 1944. Spanier was murdered in Bergen-Belsen. If highly qualified scholars with impressive institutional sponsorship had difficulties, one can imagine what it was like for less well-placed individuals.

Apart from creating difficulties for refugees seeking visas, the State Department consistently downplayed international attempts to solve or ameliorate the refugee situation. For example, in 1936 brain trusters Felix Frankfurter and Raymond Moley urged Roosevelt to send a delegation that included such prominent persons as Rabbi Stephen S. Wise to a 1936 League of Nations conference on refugees. The president instead took the advice of the State Department and sent only a minor diplomatic functionary as an observer. It was then politic for him to accept the State Department’s insistence that “the status of all aliens is covered by law and there is no latitude left to the Executive to discuss questions concerning the legal status of aliens.” When Roosevelt wanted to do something to he could almost always find a way. Immediately after the Anschluss, he directed that the Austrian quota numbers be used to expand the German quota, and shortly after Kristallnacht, he quietly directed the INS that any political or religious refugees in the United States on six-month visitor’s visas could have such visas extended or rolled over every six months. Perhaps 15,000 persons were thus enabled to stay in the United States. On more public occasions however, such as the infamous early 1939 voyage of the German liner Saint Louis, loaded with nearly a thousand refugees whose Cuban visas had been canceled, he again took State Department advice and turned a deaf ear to appeals for American visas while the vessel hove to just off Miami Beach. The Saint Louis returned its passengers to Europe, where many of them perished in the Holocaust.

After the Nazis overran France, Roosevelt showed what a determined president could do. In the summer of 1940 he instructed his Advisory Committee on Refugees to make lists of eminent refugees and told the State Department to issue visas for them. An agent named Varian Fry, operating out of Marseilles and with the cooperation of American vice consuls, managed to get more than a thousand eminent refugees into Spain and on to the United States. Those rescued by these means included Heinrich Mann, Marc Chagall, and Wanda Landowska. But at the same time, Roosevelt appointed his friend Breckinridge Long as assistant secretary of state. A confirmed nativist and anti-Semite, Long was in charge of the visa section and thus oversaw refugee policy. The president eventually became aware of the biases in the State Department, and when he decided in mid-1944 to bring in a “token shipment” of nearly a thousand refugees from American-run camps in Europe, he put Interior Secretary Harold L. Ickes in charge.
excerpt from McGraw-Hill Science & Technology Dictionary: immigration


67 posted on 01/28/2012 9:42:21 PM PST by anglian
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