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To: Ol' Dan Tucker
OK...I was careless in failing to qualify my words. Rather than leaving it open to the interpretation that no lies were protected speech, I should have been more clear that certain lies not only fall outside the realm of protected speech, but constitute criminal acts. Is that better?

You say, "Fraud is a crime committed against another individual in order to steal their property." Actually, most fraud statutes I'm familiar with use verbiage along the lines of "something of value." For example, slander and libel are a form of fraudulent assertion that need not necessarily deprive one of property, but only besmirch or damage the reputation of another person . Perjury, as you point out, is lying under certain specific conditions.

Both crimes (and civil torts in the case of slander and libel) demonstrate simply that not all lies are protected speech. Perjury demonstrates that lies can be criminalized when they threaten the sanctity of a legal process and potentially victimize a party in a court of law. I would argue that "Stolen Valor" lies similarly victimize a class of persons in much the same way the passer of a counterfeit $20 bill victimizes every holder of a legitimately obtained, genuine $20 bill. The "honor" of a certain military award may not be quantifiable in monetary terms, but it is no less a thing of value than a person's reputation or good name. Moreover, to falsely claim say a Bronze Star, is to falsely assert an awards process that includes the generation of official documents. If one were to forge those documents there's no question that is not protected speech, even if one did not use the document to obtain "a thing of value". Falsely wearing or claiming the award falsely presupposes the existence of said documents, and in that regards is no different than generating the fake documents that support the issuance of that award.

24 posted on 03/15/2012 3:21:37 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack
OK...I was careless in failing to qualify my words. Rather than leaving it open to the interpretation that no lies were protected speech, I should have been more clear that certain lies not only fall outside the realm of protected speech, but constitute criminal acts. Is that better?

Sure. But it still does nothing to further your argument that simply lying about military service or medals should be criminalized.

I would argue that "Stolen Valor" lies similarly victimize a class of persons in much the same way the passer of a counterfeit $20 bill victimizes every holder of a legitimately obtained, genuine $20 bill.

I disagree. If the bank finds that a customer has given them a bad note, they do not stop accepting $20 notes from everyone. So, the value of my legitimate $20 note retains the same value after the discovery of a bad note as it had before. Therefore, I have not been harmed.

If someone lies about serving in the Coast Guard, it does nothing to lessen the service I provided.

Do you honestly believe that people falsely claiming military services was such a big problem that we needed a new federal law to address it?

If someone is misrepresenting themselves to defraud someone else, why aren't existing fraud laws good enough?

If someone is defaming or libeling you, can't you already sue under defamation or libel laws?

Similarly, if someone is committing perjury by claiming under oath to have received a medal, why aren't existing perjury laws good enough to prosecute?

IMO, we shoudn't jail people for lying about the 'one that got away'. As I wrote, lying, in and of itself, is harmless. It is the lies that harm that should be criminalized, and not too surprisingly, they are already against the law.

27 posted on 03/15/2012 4:56:42 PM PDT by Ol' Dan Tucker (People should not be afraid of the government. Government should be afraid of the people)
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