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The AR-15 and steel cased ammo - how to make Wolf or Tula shoot reliably.
Tinkerer's Blog ^ | 5/20/2012 | squashpup

Posted on 05/27/2012 5:48:19 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH

We've all been there...walking around the local gun store (or, as I like to call it, the Magic Goody Shop) and seen Russian-made steel cased .223 ammo selling for quite a bit less than the brass versions of the same rounds. And, many of us have fallen to temptation and bought scads of the stuff, thinking of how much money we'll save, and how we can plink 'til our heart's content for pennies on the dollar.

And then, many of us have faced the bitter disappointment of repeated malfunctions and losing money when we give away a large pile of ammo that simply won't function properly in our guns.

I've seen quite a few stories of people trying to shoot steel cased ammo out of an AR-15 rifle with less than satisfactory results. The most common issue is the dreaded "stuck case", where the case wedges itself so firmly in the chamber that the extractor simply doesn't have the "oomph" to move it. In fact, most often, the only remedy is to put a cleaning rod down the bore of your gun and whack it with a hammer.

That's what I had to do. My AR was particularly finicky, barely firing 50 rounds of Wolf or Tula before hanging up completely, bringing an early ending to a day at the range. The thing would run like a champ all day long on brass, even crappy brass, but a couple boxes of Tula would bring it to its knees.

I began reading about this on the Internets, and it is a common problem. Many have the completely WRONG idea about what causes this, however.

First, it is NOT caused by a "lacquer coating" cooking off and leaving its residue in the chamber. If you don't believe me, get a spent shell and hit it with a blowtorch. Nothing's coming off of that sucker. If you've bought your ammo in the past few years, it doesn't even have lacquer on it.

Second, many people believe it is because the steel expands, and, being less flexible than brass, wedges itself in the chamber. That's not true either. But, steel being less flexible that brass does contribute to the problem.

The answer is simpler (and fortunately more correctable) than either of those.

Steel doesn't expand like brass does in the chamber. This allows a slight gap around the cartridge case upon firing. That gap admits powder residue and carbon into the chamber, which begins building up on the sides. Pretty soon, the dimensions of the chamber are too small to allow the casing to move freely in and out. The next time the bolt slams a round into the chamber, it wedges there, unable to be moved without physical intervention.

"Well," you might say, "the 7.62 x 39 rounds that I shoot are steel cased, and they don't have that problem". No, they don't. But, it is not because the blowback of residue into the chamber isn't happening. It is because of the shape of the round itself. The sides of the 7.62 x 39 are tapered enough that they can still overcome friction with the sides of the chamber. The .223 is far straighter, and so it is far more difficult for the extractor to overcome the frictional forces of the now smaller chamber that has a good hold on the straight walls of the shell case.

This is the problem I had with my rifle. On multiple occasions, always after firing less than 50 rounds of steel cased ammo, I have had a major stoppage with my AR. It always involved a spent case hanging up in the chamber, it always was impossible to clear without jamming a cleaning rod down the barrel and knocking it out, and it almost always put my AR out of action until I could take it home and work on it.

Once, while in the presence of a buddy of mine, I experienced the problem and he said, "You need to run a little brass in every mag to keep it cleaned out."

That didn't make sense to me. How did brass keep the action clean? Besides, common knowledge was that you never mix steel and brass when shooting...that mixing the two would only make this problem worse.

Then I read this article on the Box O' Truth about steel case and brass cased ammo. Although their hypothesis confirmed my friend's statement that brass ammo could help clean the chamber, they stopped short of recommending (or figuring out) that running steel and brass together can make a gun run more reliably.

I figured it was up to me to test it.

I started by cleaning the chamber thoroughly and soaking it down with CLP. I then loaded my mags with one round of brass case for every 9 of steel. Then, I headed to the range.

Fully expecting to get a stoppage before the end of mag number two, the AR kept eating the steel case well past that point. The brass coming out eventually carried a considerable amount of black deposit on the outside of it. It was rock hard and couldn't be scraped off with a fingernail. I did a variety of shooting, including slow firing (shooting once every 20 seconds or so), sustained slow firing (shooting once every five seconds), fast firing (shooting as fast as I could pull the trigger) and even some bump firing (near automatic rates of fire).

The AR had two hiccups, probably attributable to the Russian ammo's lower power. On the first, the round didn't quite come all the way out of the mag. I gave the bottom of the mag a whack and it kept going. The next, the bolt didn't appear to come back far enough to grab the next round. A quick pull of the charging handle fixed it. The gun seemed to run fine otherwise, and most importantly, no casings were getting stuck in the chamber. After five mags and nearly 150 rounds, I was running out of time and would be late for another engagement, so I packed it up to continue testing later. Besides, the gun showed no signs of slowing down. I was satisfied.

I have seen other options recommended, such as changing uppers or barrels to get a chromed chamber, or using a chamber reamer. Both would probably work, but for the occasional use of steel cased ammo, both seem to be overkill. A 100 round box of cheap brass cased ammo should let you shoot 1000 rounds of steel case, if this method works for you. You might even be able to tweak the ratios and get away with 1 for 20 or 1 for 30.

If you have an AR that doesn't like steel ammo, but have a stockpile of it or have a source where you can get it for cheap, it's worth a try to mix some brass in with the steel and see if your AR will run it.

TOPICS: Miscellaneous; Outdoors; Reference; Sports
KEYWORDS: ar15; banglist; tula; wolf
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Not blog pimping. Posted in entirety. Thought this was some info that might be useful to some.
1 posted on 05/27/2012 5:48:34 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH
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I was cautious, I bought a box of 20 rounds to test the Tula. I had to manually feed or eject every third round. Thankfully no serious jams.

I have no intention of ever putting that stuff in mine again.

2 posted on 05/27/2012 5:54:36 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the weren't really there)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

It seems that the Russian stuff is not loaded as hot as most brass. Sounds like it didn’t have enough “oomph” to work the action of your gun. I’ve heard of that happening before.

Some ARs run it fine out of the box, some require some experimentation, like mine. Some just won’t run it.

Unfortunately, I bought a metric sh**-ton of the stuff before I tested it, so I was relieved that I could make it work. It’s great for plinking...and practicing stoppage drills!

3 posted on 05/27/2012 6:00:16 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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Interesting article, thanks for posting it.

My reason for not firing steel cases in an AR (borrowed, of course, as mine got lost in a boating accident) is that it is very hard on the extractor. I don’t want to have to buy (a friend) a new extractor just to save a few bucks on ammo and, of course, you don’t want to have it crap out just when you need it to work or you take a dirt nap.

Perhaps, though, the reason it is hard on extractors is the crud build-up?

4 posted on 05/27/2012 6:01:26 AM PDT by Ancesthntr (Bibi to Odumbo: Its not going to happen.)
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Steel cases have another problem besides expansion. They are hard and cause chamber damage. If any edge exists at the bullet crimp, it acts like a chisel on the edge of the chamber when it feeds in. This is especially bad in pistols due to the angle of incidence on the chamber wall and generally higher number of rounds fired.

5 posted on 05/27/2012 6:04:29 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: ChildOfThe60s
I have no intention of ever putting that stuff in mine again.

Problem solved - don't keep running crap ammo and expect different results!

6 posted on 05/27/2012 6:10:46 AM PDT by broken_arrow1
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I have a S&W M&P 15R (5.45x39). In that caliber, my only choice is Russian steel-cased ammo. Fortunately, I’ve only had to knock out a stuck case just once in 2000 rounds of use.

7 posted on 05/27/2012 6:18:25 AM PDT by Ronald_Magnus
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To: Ancesthntr; SampleMan; broken_arrow1

It might be hard on the extractor. I’ve heard both sides. Probably because the increased friction with the chamber walls due to buildup makes it harder for the extractor to pull the round out.

I just keep an extra extractor handy, which is a good idea no matter what kind of ammo you use. It’s a 10 minute fix and the extractor is cheap. You can get a DPMS extractor for around $13.

As for the hardness of the casing, it is harder than brass, but still very mild steel, and is far less hard than your chamber. If you think about it, people who run steel case exclusively in AK type rifles don’t seem to have a problem with chamber damage. If I had to guess, I’d say that the steel they use in Yugo, Romanian or even Russian AK rifles probably isn’t as high quality as that used in most ARs and many of those rifles digest steel their whole lives without issue. I have an old SKS (borrowed of course) that I’ve run for literally decades on nothing but steel and haven’t noticed any chamber damage.

Yeah, Tula and Wolf are crap ammo...but anything that lets me practice more for less is worth it.

8 posted on 05/27/2012 6:24:10 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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It’s a useful article, thank you for posting!

9 posted on 05/27/2012 6:26:15 AM PDT by Old Sarge (RIP FReeper Skyraider (1930-2011) - You Are Missed)
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makes sense. i have found that the steel stuff runs fine out of my chrome lined ARs, but it does have issues in standard.

10 posted on 05/27/2012 6:35:52 AM PDT by The_Sword_of_Groo ("No mind is thoroughly well organized that is deficient in a sense of humor.")
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To: Ronald_Magnus

My buddy’s wife has an M4 that can fire 100 round Beta mags of steel .223 without a hitch.

It all depends on the gun. Of course, the 5.45x39 has a more tapered case, too, which helps.

11 posted on 05/27/2012 6:38:50 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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To: The_Sword_of_Groo

Mine has a chrome lined barrel, but the chamber is not.

Mixing the brass with the steel fixed the extraction problem completely, at least for the first 150 rounds or so. I’ll keep testing though.

12 posted on 05/27/2012 6:42:25 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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Russian ammo made at the Barnaul Plant is good-to-go in most all quality made ARs. Barnaul Plant ammo would be your 'Bear Ammo' and the New WPA Ammo (Wolf...but NOT the Black Box Wolf or the original "Military Classic" Wolf) as well as Monarch sold at Academy, and Barnaul branded of course.

The Tula plant made ammo...not so much. That's mainly TulAmmo, and the old/original Wolf stuff.

Some here would be advised to visit and the ammo specific section for ARs. LOTS of accurate info and real facts found there.
13 posted on 05/27/2012 6:44:03 AM PDT by CaptSkip
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To: CaptSkip

I had Silver Bear hang up in my chamber as well. But, when I did this test, I was using Tula (well, it was Herter’s from Cabelas, but if you read the box, it is Tula).

Before I mixed in the brass, I couldn’t get 50 rounds through the gun without a stoppage that required tools to fix.

I think there’s a lot of variation from gun to gun, esp. considering that many “homemade” AR’s are pieced together from parts originating from many different sources and it is hard to tell what parts have what effects on the feeding/firing/extracting process. It’s good to have a resource like to use as a starting point for your own experimentation to see what works best in your gun.

Anything that gives me a reason to shoot more is a good thing.

14 posted on 05/27/2012 6:53:59 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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To: SampleMan

Thanks all for the good info. I have run fair amount of Ruski steel through 45 ACP, not many apparent problems, but like anything else if its too good to be true (low cost plinking) it probably is. Sure don’t want to turn a fat pistola into a trotline weight.

Thinking about it, I would never buy chinese ammo, why ruski??? Both’s price edge is from dropping quality.

15 posted on 05/27/2012 7:09:06 AM PDT by X-spurt (Its time for ON YOUR FEET or on your knees)
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The method of having a brass cased round inserted at a specific interval with the steel cased ammo to 'clean' the chamber of the fouling build-up in a Direct Impingement AR is a unique idea, if you can quantify the method effectively with your gun and ammo(s).

With the fall-back of a chamber-brush cleaning as needed.
16 posted on 05/27/2012 7:09:56 AM PDT by CaptSkip
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Quite an interesting article. I have purchased Wolf before and have only one box remaining. Never had a problem with chambering/extracting but the round-to-round dispersion was horrendous. Having done my own re-loading, I could only conclude that Wolf does not have any quality control WRT grain load. This could also be a factor in the extracting.

17 posted on 05/27/2012 7:13:41 AM PDT by rjsimmon (1-20-2013 The Tree of Liberty Thirsts)
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IMHO, minor variations in chamber dimensions can make a huge difference.

My Bushmaster M-4gery can digest a thousand rounds of steel ammo no problem with no cleaning.

A friend’s Olympic AR could not get through a magazine without a jam, even though it works perfectly with brass ammo.

18 posted on 05/27/2012 7:18:13 AM PDT by Travis McGee (
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To: CaptSkip

Yeah. I plan to keep shooting to see when the first hang-up occurs. I’ll report back when I have more info.

And, I don’t think this would have worked nearly as well if I hadn’t started with a clean chamber. I did NOT clean after the last range session, however, as I plan to pick up where I’ve left off. I have a few more boxes of Tula to put through before I clean.

I’ll let you know!

19 posted on 05/27/2012 7:22:54 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (Are you better off than you were $4 trillion ago?)
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Mark For Later...

20 posted on 05/27/2012 7:35:21 AM PDT by CAluvdubya (I just try to stay out of the fray...)
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