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Can this happen in dealing with Obamacare?
Me

Posted on 06/28/2012 11:39:22 PM PDT by MacMattico

Eric Cantor has scheduled a "repeal Obamacare" vote for July 11th. Because the mandate was defined as a tax, can the House simply repeal the tax, as they have the power of taxation?

Would this effectively cancel the mandate, causing the bill to implode on itself?


TOPICS: Health/Medicine
KEYWORDS: obamacare
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If this were possible, then Roberts would be a genius, limiting the commerce clause and tricking the libs on the court into allowing the House to repeal their "win".

It can't be this simple, I know I'm missing something.

1 posted on 06/28/2012 11:39:34 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: MacMattico

I think for your plan to work, the Republicans would have to have spines, instead of being subservient lick-spittle worms who cower at the thought of confronting Obama and his host of Orcs in the House and Senate.

Other than that, sounds good to me.


2 posted on 06/28/2012 11:42:55 PM PDT by M1911A1
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To: MacMattico

I’ve wondered this too.. Could be grounds for another lawsuit headed to SCOTUS since Roberts “changed” what 0bamacare is.


3 posted on 06/28/2012 11:43:58 PM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: MacMattico
House Republicans, who passed a bill, 245-189, to repeal the health care law in January 2011, were meeting Thursday in the Capitol to map out their next steps. Whatever efforts House Republicans make almost certainly will die in the Senate, where Democrats have control, and Obama would have the ability to veto such a bill if it passed both chambers.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120628/POLITICS/120629327/1520?Title=House-to-Vote-on-Repealing-Law-in-2-Weeks

I say great. Even though it will die in the Senate, make the reps stand up and be accountable for their vote1

4 posted on 06/28/2012 11:45:55 PM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: MacMattico

Right now I’m sick to my stomach and tired of ‘hoping’ people we think are on our side will do something. I’m also tired of hearing how Roberts did us a favor. Sorry, needed rant. To ticked off to hope this happens.


5 posted on 06/28/2012 11:46:50 PM PDT by ReneeLynn (Socialism is SO yesterday. Fascism, it's the new black. Mmm mmm mmm...)
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To: MacMattico

No, the house alone can’t repeal anything.


6 posted on 06/28/2012 11:49:23 PM PDT by Melas (u)
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To: ReneeLynn

Oh, I’m with you. I’ve gone after Roberts on other threads. I was just hoping, probably out of desperation. :(


7 posted on 06/28/2012 11:50:44 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: GeorgeWashingtonsGhost

“I’ve wondered this too.. Could be grounds for another lawsuit headed to SCOTUS since Roberts “changed” what 0bamacare is.”

First let me say that I agree that this case ranks up there with Roe v Wade and Dread Scott.

But, actually Roberts didn’t change the law in his ruling.

My wife is an attorney and she says that the justices don’t have to follow only the arguments given by the defense.

If they see other ways that a case can win they have the right, a duty even since they are supposed to be seeking justice, to add to the case.

He argued that it is constitutional when viewed as a tax. He is wrong, but has that right to view it that way.

(We are doomed to TSA style health care. Thanks, Bush!)


8 posted on 06/28/2012 11:52:16 PM PDT by garjog
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To: Melas

However the House *can* put up a bill forcing a bunch of vulnerable Senators to declare themselves on what may be the most hated bill in history, right before an election.

It’s a pressure point.


9 posted on 06/28/2012 11:54:50 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: saywhatagain
But now that it has been redefined as a tax, can't the House just not accept it? I mean, after all, they never passed an individual mandate tax in the first place, so how can one exist? Doesn't the house have to originate all new taxes? The ruling says the mandate is a tax, but the SC has no power to create a tax, and the supreme court said it is a tax, but not that they created one, couldn't the House just say VOID?
10 posted on 06/28/2012 11:57:42 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: M1911A1
"instead of being subservient lick-spittle worms "

OMG, that was funny!

Thank you for the laugh on such a dark day.

11 posted on 06/28/2012 11:57:42 PM PDT by precisionshootist
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To: garjog
   “I’ve wondered this too.. Could be grounds for another lawsuit headed to SCOTUS since Roberts “changed” what 0bamacare is.”

  Seems that way to me.... If the current law has to be changed to make it constitutional, then how can it be valid now?
12 posted on 06/29/2012 12:04:29 AM PDT by Maurice Tift (You can't stop the signal, Mal. You can never stop the signal.)
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To: MacMattico

Doesn’t matter. It’s all for show.

They don’t have the votes to sustain it and Obama will veto.


13 posted on 06/29/2012 12:05:40 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live thnrough it anyway)
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To: MacMattico

Scratch that.

Harry Reid won’t just table it, the repeal will be placed in a dark and dank closet.

The Senate will never see it and Barry will be immune from any action.


14 posted on 06/29/2012 12:07:08 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live thnrough it anyway)
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To: MacMattico
Photobucket
15 posted on 06/29/2012 12:10:42 AM PDT by HotHunt
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To: MacMattico
"But now that it has been redefined as a tax, can't the House just not accept it?"

My understanding . . . just because O and his minions call it something else, or by any other name . . . its still a tax. And voted on by both houses and signed by the president.

Now its up to the people to decide by electing their representatives to keep it as is or repeal.

Not much analysis required beyond that.

16 posted on 06/29/2012 12:13:40 AM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: MacMattico

Doesn’t work. Once a tax is in effect, the house and the senate both have to pass a repeal.


17 posted on 06/29/2012 12:20:39 AM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: MacMattico

I wonder if there are any Demrat legislators who would have
voted against Obumblecare if it had been sold as what it really
is, a mega-tax increase......


18 posted on 06/29/2012 12:20:39 AM PDT by Sivad (NorCal Red Turf)
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To: MacMattico
It can't be this simple, I know I'm missing something.

What you're missing is the utterly destructive legal precedent that Roberts established today, one that will be cited by future courts to uphold the most outrageous, egregious and coercive punitive taxes imaginable.

19 posted on 06/29/2012 12:24:58 AM PDT by kevao
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To: MacMattico

Not really; Roberts said essentially that when the mandate was originally passed, the Congress was within its authority to do so even though they got the reason for that authority wrong. In other words, when it passed, it was passed as a tax even though everyone thought it was going through under the Commerce Clause.


20 posted on 06/29/2012 12:30:09 AM PDT by Little Pig (Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.)
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To: saywhatagain; MacMattico
Now that the Court has declared the mandate to be a tax, why can't Obamacare be Constitutionally challenged again as an improperly-passed law:

US Constitution, Article I, Section 7:

All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Since the bill originated in the Senate (didn't it?), it is unconstitutional by virtue of the above clause.

21 posted on 06/29/2012 12:33:41 AM PDT by Doug Loss
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To: MacMattico

The House could do it if they were sure-footed enough but the sad fact is that they aren’t. They are hapless and hopeless. I wish I could think differently but I’ve watched them too long. A few negative comments from the MSM and they’ll fold like a house of pancakes.


22 posted on 06/29/2012 12:42:36 AM PDT by goodn'mad
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To: MacMattico

The House could do it if they were sure-footed enough but the sad fact is that they aren’t. They are hapless and hopeless. I wish I could think differently but I’ve watched them too long. A few negative comments from the MSM and they’ll fold like a house of pancakes.


23 posted on 06/29/2012 12:42:50 AM PDT by goodn'mad
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To: agere_contra

Agreed, but that didn’t seem to be what he was asking.


24 posted on 06/29/2012 12:43:45 AM PDT by Melas (u)
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To: garjog

Huh?


25 posted on 06/29/2012 12:44:51 AM PDT by goodn'mad
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To: MacMattico

The more interesting question, given how this nightmare was rushed through Congress, is in which house of Congress did the mandated provision arise? If it arose in the Senate, it could again be considered unconstitutional. Remember at the time this POS was being foisted on the American people Democrats were in the no-tax spin mode,


26 posted on 06/29/2012 12:49:21 AM PDT by monocle
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To: Doug Loss
"Since the bill originated in the Senate (didn't it?)

No. Not true. According to numerous government websites, Rep. Charles Rangel along with 40 co sponsors introduced the bill 9/17/2009

And the more I think about this, with Abomination arguing strongly that this was NOT a tax, the more I believe

he knew the weakness, in this bill if sold as a tax, (could be repealed) and

he was stretching for the power grab under his oral arguments in front of the SCOTUS which he lost

27 posted on 06/29/2012 12:55:21 AM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: monocle

Agreed!


28 posted on 06/29/2012 12:55:58 AM PDT by MacMattico
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To: ModelBreaker

You are probably correct, but beyond that, who gets all the money?


29 posted on 06/29/2012 1:02:35 AM PDT by OldEagle
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To: agere_contra
However the House *can* put up a bill forcing a bunch of vulnerable Senators to declare themselves on what may be the most hated bill in history, right before an election.

The vulnerable senators won't have to do any such thing. Reid will never bring it up for a vote.

30 posted on 06/29/2012 1:04:28 AM PDT by Spartan79 (I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health, and the liberties of man.)
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To: Spartan79

Yes, I reluctantly agree.


31 posted on 06/29/2012 1:30:29 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: saywhatagain

I’m not so sure it would die in the senate, now that it’s a tax. But, would it even get to the senate? Doesn’t Harry control what gets voted on and what doesn’t?


32 posted on 06/29/2012 2:33:57 AM PDT by Reagan69 (I supported Sarah Palin and all I got was a lousy DVD !)
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To: Sivad
I wonder if there are any Demrat legislators who would have voted against Obumblecare if it had been sold as what it really is, a mega-tax increase......

Yes, they just came off of an election and they were banking on the fact that they would have plenty of time to pander to their constituents back home to forgive them before the '10 elections rolled back around.

Libs LOVE tax increases! Any shape and form.

33 posted on 06/29/2012 2:37:19 AM PDT by submarinerswife (Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results~Einstein)
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To: Reagan69
Yes it will die in the Senate. Yes Harry controls what gets voted on.

He would never allow his fellow democrats who are up for re election this year to vote on this issue now

For this to repealed requires a full Republican sweep this November

34 posted on 06/29/2012 2:46:09 AM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: Doug Loss
Since the bill originated in the Senate (didn't it?), it is unconstitutional by virtue of the above clause.

Apparently not according to Hot Air's post about this. See Say, doesn’t the Constitution require tax bills to originate in the House?

SNIP..."The bill that passed the Senate wasn’t technically a Senate bill. Reid took a bill that had already passed the House, stripped out the provisions to turn it into a “shell bill,” and then inserted the text of ObamaCare to get around this requirement. The bill that passed the Senate was H.R.3590, which initially had to do with tax breaks for military homeowners. And yes, they’ve used the “shell bill” strategy before. In fact, the conservative opinion today specifically mentioned Article I, section 7 at one point while raising no objection to Reid’s sleight of hand.."

SNIP...The silver lining here procedurally is that, now that the mandate’s officially a “tax,” it falls squarely within the parameters of budgetary matters than can be dealt with in the Senate via reconciliation. That means the GOP will only need 51 votes to get rid of it, not 60.

35 posted on 06/29/2012 3:03:14 AM PDT by kara2008
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To: MacMattico

Listen to the Mark Levin show from last night
He painstakingly dissectd the Roberts opinion, as best as an illogical rambling unconsititutional argument can be dissected

It’s only a tax because the USSC said it was a tax, Congress never said it was a tax

Catch-22

For purposes of redress against an unconstitutional tax, citizens have no recourse because...it is not a tax
Even if Congress “repeals” the stature, the US Constitution has now been dinged by Roberts- maybe heavily damaged

There is nothing to rejoice about here


36 posted on 06/29/2012 3:32:54 AM PDT by silverleaf (Every human spent about half an hour as a single cell)
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To: garjog

one of the rules of judicial interpretation is that the statute in question is presumed to be lawful/constitutional

invalidating a statute is a court’s last option

not saying I agree, but that’s the ground truth


37 posted on 06/29/2012 3:42:12 AM PDT by Abundy
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To: agere_contra

They can try but Reid will simply not allow it to come to a vote so those vulnerable senators are protected.

If they are serious, they can attach various methods of repeal to every piece of legislation that leaves the house...


38 posted on 06/29/2012 3:54:16 AM PDT by Adder (Da bro has GOT to go!)
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To: ModelBreaker
It's now a tax bill that originated in the Senate.

They may have to vote on it again, this time starting in the House and then going to the Senate, before the tax takes effect.

39 posted on 06/29/2012 4:26:09 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: Adder

I hate to say it, but electing Romney is our only hope. (and a majority in the Senate and House). I think it has become more possible after yesterday.

Romney needs an ad showing Obama’s “forward”. Higher taxes, healthcare rationing, higher taxes, higher taxes, unemployment soaring, businesses closing...

Link him to the HIGHEST TAX IN HISTORY. and show him LYING about it not being a tax.

Be graphic, show granny being denied medication or surgery because she’s too old. Show Barry giving her a blue pill.

They push granny over the cliff, show Sebelius pushing granny over the cliff. Fight fire with fire. And start NOW.

He’s get to get aggressively creative. This the life or death of our country.

When we have control, we’ve got to start Amending the constitution to limit the size and scope of the federal government. GOT TO.


40 posted on 06/29/2012 4:27:34 AM PDT by Reagan69 (I supported Sarah Palin and all I got was a lousy DVD !)
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To: Reagan69

Agreed.

I like the ad ideas a lot...who can you forward those ideas to?

I know we can win...but when we do will we have the will to change this or will they do like last time and start whining about being liked?

I pray to God, we can get this right.


41 posted on 06/29/2012 4:48:03 AM PDT by Adder (Da bro has GOT to go!)
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To: MacMattico

Congress could have stopped this long ago but they didn’t have the huevos then and they don’t have them now. ObamaCare isn’t going anywhere but into our wallets.


42 posted on 06/29/2012 5:04:19 AM PDT by bgill
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To: MacMattico
All tax bills must originate in the U.S. House of Representatives! Obumbum care originated in the U.S. Senate! It is now constitutional, declared by SCOTUS as the largest tax in the world, do you really believe the establishment RINO’s are going to repeal Obumbum care?

Delusional ................................

43 posted on 06/29/2012 5:14:43 AM PDT by paratrooper82 (We are kicking Ass in Afghanistan, soon we will be home to kick some more Asses in Congress!)
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To: Spartan79
Nothing gets fixed if we don't take the Senate and White house. All this talk means nothing if we can't get enough people to come around to the light and shun the darkness!!
44 posted on 06/29/2012 5:17:34 AM PDT by ontap
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To: MacMattico
As a tax, a temporary repeal can be put through congress as a budget measure by a simple majority vote in the Senate. It would be FILIBUSTER PROOF. This means that a Romney victory, and a simple majority in the Senate can defeat Obamacare.
45 posted on 06/29/2012 5:44:30 AM PDT by norwaypinesavage (Galileo: In science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of one individual)
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To: MacMattico

When is the last time the US Congress has permanently repealed a tax?


46 posted on 06/29/2012 5:50:41 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: garjog
Thanks for clarifying. I think Kagan worked the magic here. She is a persistent, Marxist 'psy ops' critter. That's why Obama was so hell-bent on her as Justice; Because she's supposedly highly adept at CHANGING people's minds.

What was CLEARLY unconstitutional was Kagan's FAILURE TO RECUSE HERSELF. There is NO disputing that.

47 posted on 06/29/2012 8:47:05 AM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: garjog

It figures that Obama would accuse the SCOTUS of going ‘activist’ on him. Well they DID and IT WORKED OUT WELL FOR HIM, DIDN’T IT? I wonder if the first black, Marxist Muslim gay illegal alien POS POTUS will apologize now for the threat? NO.


48 posted on 06/29/2012 8:52:54 AM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: MacMattico
Eric Cantor has scheduled a "repeal Obamacare" vote for July 11th. Because the mandate was defined as a tax, can the House simply repeal the tax, as they have the power of taxation?

The house cannot act unilaterally, the Senate has to vote also.

I may be wrong, but I think that there are two possible scenarios and that is probably what house republicans are looking at.

1. They vote for full repeal of Obamacare. This is dead right now as Ried will just refuse to consider it and will block it from coming to a vote on the Senate floor.

2. They vote to repeal the TAX. I think this may have a chance of reaching the Senate floor under budget reconcilliation rules. As I said I may be wrong but Ried might not be able to block a vote on just a TAX repeal. If so, then all the Dem Senators have to go on record voting and it is possible a couple in danger of losing may flip and vote to repeal.

49 posted on 06/29/2012 8:59:41 AM PDT by commish (Freedom tastes sweetest to those who have fought to preserve it.)
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To: GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
"Kagan worked the magic here. She is a persistent, Marxist 'psy ops' critter."
50 posted on 06/29/2012 9:51:21 AM PDT by garjog
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