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The Neighbors Side Of The Story Regarding The Phoenix Pastors Church Meetings At His Home
Phoenis Times ^ | 1-17-2008 | Sarah Fenske

Posted on 07/08/2012 8:33:47 AM PDT by trailhkr1

Actually this is an old story that has been going on for some time. Turns out the neighbors, not the city was the ones who had the beef with Michael Salman.

Guy really ticked off his neighbors who all sided against him.

From the story: But then Salman announced that he was planning to build a church right there in his backyard. He talked about not just Sunday services, but weeknight Bible studies, a workout room and basketball court, even a Christian day care center.

"He gave us a lecture on the fact that all of us were going to make money on our property, and if we were true Christians, we ought to be willing to sacrifice a little bit," Woods recalls. "You can imagine, a few guys in the audience were all over him for that.

"That meeting is where the real animosity started. He made no effort at being conciliatory or cooperative. That really united the neighbors against him," Woods says. "He was his own worst enemy."

(Excerpt) Read more at phoenixnewtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: church; neighbors; propertyrights
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In 1994, Salman had filed paperwork claiming that he belonged to the Embassy of God. That meant, the document claimed, that he didn't need to follow United States law...... In his thinking, they shouldn't face so much as a traffic ticket if they were caught speeding. Just as ambassadors from other countries have diplomatic immunity, so should "ambassadors" from Heaven.

A real winner here who makes Christians look like loons.

1 posted on 07/08/2012 8:33:50 AM PDT by trailhkr1
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To: trailhkr1

A real winner here who makes Christians look like loons.

****

It can get ugly when people confuse being persecuted for their beliefs and being persecuted for acting like a complete and total jackass.


2 posted on 07/08/2012 9:04:19 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: trailhkr1

A real winner here who makes Christians look like loons.

****

It can get ugly when people confuse being persecuted for their beliefs with being persecuted for acting like a complete and total jackass.


3 posted on 07/08/2012 9:04:33 AM PDT by gzzimlich
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To: trailhkr1

That is all gossip and heresay of a mob who now need to justify themselves for getting a Christian man put in jail for having Bible studies. The man was sent to jail for having Bible meetings in his home. He was not sent to jail for all the gossip nonsense and would have been if he really did refuse to obey all laws as this pack of hyenas claim.

They know what they did has pissed off the country and now they are trying to justify their mob action witch hunt against a Christian man by demonizing him. In truth, we don’t know what happened and who he is.


4 posted on 07/08/2012 9:04:50 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson
They know what they did has pissed off the country and now they are trying to justify their mob action witch hunt against a Christian man by demonizing him. In truth, we don’t know what happened and who he is.

Sure we do...over 60+ neighbors are all wrong?? Face it, this guy brought everything on himself. As the neighbors mentioned in the article, he was his own worst enemy as he was unwilling to be reasonable about anything.

Face it SJ, a person who thinks he is exempt from traffic tickets because he has "diplomatic immunity" from God is not dealing with a full deck.

5 posted on 07/08/2012 9:11:47 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchen)
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To: trailhkr1
A real winner here who makes Christians look like loons.

Thanks for the followup, always good to get as much info as available to put a story into perspective. I haven't time to read the whole thing at the moment. Interested in hearing the other side.

But.....whatever this man does is not automatically a blanket statement on "Christians". Although this sort of thing is usually presented that way.

6 posted on 07/08/2012 9:13:53 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: trailhkr1

Oh, good grief.
I have seen a church break up because they argued about what color carpet to put in the sanctuary, and whether to go from organ to piano.
About fifty people walked out because the pastor replaced the organ with a piano, and went with the majority opinion on the carpet color.
My sister says quite frequently there would be more Christians if it weren’t for Christians.


7 posted on 07/08/2012 9:16:20 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: SaraJohnson

What is one to do when their exercise of their property rights severely affects the property rights of their neighbors? Freedom of religion seems secondary to property rights in this instance. The religious freedom of this guy is a problem only when he violates zoning laws and inconveniences his neighbors. What if the Muslim next door to you sounds the call to prayer five times daily and has prayers at his house in a residential neighborhood with residential zoning?


8 posted on 07/08/2012 9:17:09 AM PDT by JimSEA
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To: All

The gov’t and the neighbors should have gone in and burned the whole place down with everybody in it just like Waco.


9 posted on 07/08/2012 9:19:58 AM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: ChildOfThe60s
But.....whatever this man does is not automatically a blanket statement on "Christians".

I agree 100%

Although this sort of thing is usually presented that way.

I also agree 100%. That being said, there will be a certain amount of Christians who will stick up for him no matter what, even if he is wrong. That is just as sad.

10 posted on 07/08/2012 9:24:50 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchen)
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To: SaraJohnson
In truth, we don’t know what happened and who he is.

You might try going to the article and reading all of it.


11 posted on 07/08/2012 9:27:43 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: trailhkr1

Guy’s a punk.


12 posted on 07/08/2012 9:27:51 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live thnrough it anyway)
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To: trailhkr1

Good Sunday morning.

Yes, there are those magic christians who, in order to fulfill the need to be persecuted in order to be validated, go out of their way to be obnoxious and make spectacles of themselves.

There are warped nuts in every cause.


13 posted on 07/08/2012 9:28:48 AM PDT by Sequoyah101 (You've been screwed by your government.)
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To: SaraJohnson

I have had to stand my ground many times in giving out gospel tracts in public, but this sounds too much like Ken Hovind’s unreasonable insistence that he was exempt from building codes, etc.

And maybe it will help to repeat what i said in the original thread on this,

From what I read the man want to have public meetings three times a week in a 2,000 square foot building, which has a pulpit and chairs for as many as 40 people, which he built after obtaining a a permit to convert a garage into a game room.

The city of Phoenix forbids any other occupancy or use, which can be sticky (what if they played Bible games), but the man apparently could have a church there if he complied with the normal requirements for such.

The question is whether the state has a legit interest is not only insuring homes are safely built, but that meeting houses of a certain size can require more safety features.

And at what size or frequency does having regular meetings for any purpose at your house require these extra requirements.

These are legit questions as i see them, and both sides need to be reasonable, with tolerance but not compromise, which can be a grey area.


14 posted on 07/08/2012 9:35:58 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: trailhkr1
A real winner here who makes Christians look like loons.

Your touting group identity and collective guilt on a forum dedicated to individual and religious freedom makes newbies look like loons, lol.

15 posted on 07/08/2012 9:36:36 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

I admit I could have worded it better..


16 posted on 07/08/2012 9:38:42 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchen)
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To: Vendome

Yup. Everything he’s done since his “ordination” would indicate a convicted felon and practicing con man cloaked in the mantel of religion. Why not? Worked for Jim Jones.


17 posted on 07/08/2012 9:51:59 AM PDT by PowderMonkey (WILL WORK FOR AMMO)
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To: JimSEA

What if the Muslim next door to you sounds the call to prayer five times daily and has prayers at his house in a residential neighborhood with residential zoning?


So we should not permit Christians the religious freedom of having Bible studies because Muslims might have Koran studies....

We should not permit Americans to have the second amendment because Muslims and Black might get guns an murder people.

This case was over a man having Bible studies in his house - a legal activity under the first amendment. After massive harassment by his witchey neighbors, he was raided by the State and told it was unsafe to have people in his living room. So he moved it outside. Then they banned him from having it outside because he built an overhang to protect his friends from the weather. They were harassing the nig-er, er, I mean Christian.


18 posted on 07/08/2012 9:57:37 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson
I don't believe a word of that.
A jackass is a jackass.
When "christians start" behaving like muslims, and making up their own rules, they deserve every grief possible.
19 posted on 07/08/2012 9:59:19 AM PDT by publius911 (Formerly Publius 6961, formerly jennsdad)
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To: SaraJohnson
Folks who do the "home church' thing probably ought to prepare ahead of time for the crowd ~ and select locations where their neighbors won't be particularly disturbed.

Moving into an existing residentially zoned community and starting up a church ~ that attracts strangers, not all of whom can be assumed to be honest ~ may well create the appearance of endangering the neighbors.

They have a right of self-defense. God gave it to them.

20 posted on 07/08/2012 10:00:26 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: SaraJohnson

“we should not permit Christians the religious freedom of having Bible studies because Muslims might have Koran studies....”

I asked how you would like it. Personally I don’t want either one next door. This goes way beyond having Bible study into something which impacts the neighbors rights.


21 posted on 07/08/2012 10:05:48 AM PDT by JimSEA
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To: SaraJohnson
This case was over a man having Bible studies in his house - a legal activity under the first amendment.\

No, this is all about residential zoning and a guy thinking he is exempt and using the religion get out of jail free card.

We have residential zoning to protect the neighborhoods and the good of all. If a house next to you wanted to put in a nudie bar under "first amendment" freedoms you would be screaming from the rooftop.

22 posted on 07/08/2012 10:07:51 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence - Christopher Hitchen)
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To: trailhkr1

OK, I’ve read the whole piece. A lot more to it than in the initial posted piece here on FR.

I’m very big on religious freedom, in particular as persecuting Christians goes in this country.

BUT, religious freedom is not a right or carte blanche to be a flaming A hole and completely trample all over the quality of life of your neighbors. The ones, I might add, that were living there first. There is certainly nothing “Christian” about that.

RLUIPA sounds like a recipe for legal and social chaos.

If someone wants to worship and pray to the great god Zoog that’s fine. But that means privately. Not crapping up everyone’s quality of life that is near them.

I have political freedom of speech (for the time being anyway), but that doesn’t mean I can force others to listen to me. As much as I am sure they would benefit (grin).


23 posted on 07/08/2012 10:10:19 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: SaraJohnson
You must feel you have an indefensible position, if you felt the need to inject race into the discussion.
I had no idea, and my previous statements stiil hold.
24 posted on 07/08/2012 10:10:37 AM PDT by publius911 (Formerly Publius 6961, formerly jennsdad)
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To: trailhkr1

Sure we do...over 60+ neighbors are all wrong?? Face it, this guy brought everything on himself. As the neighbors mentioned in the article, he was his own worst enemy as he was unwilling to be reasonable about anything.


Sixty neighbors would neeever come together to do a lynching on a hated subject, right. Ever see pictures of the klan hangings. Over sixty of the community’s finest took care of business joyfully.

You better recognize what you are living in now. A few haters can easily whip up a mob against a target. Being an out of the closet Christian is infuriating to people these days. If it was a Monday night football gathering, I don’t think the witches would have been so jacked up.

Other current events - Police stood by in Dearborn while a mob of Islamists stoned them. In that case, too, this was all justified because out of the closet Christians attended a Muslim festival. They had to right to be there, we heard. They were extremists for being there. They were forbidden a booth to had out Bible tracts which is what they wanted to do and is absolutely normal and legal in America. So they carried protest signs and for that the police stood by while little piggies from the Middle East stoned them. Dearborn had already lost in court for violating this group’s rights to participate last year and so they just did it again and police behaved like the days of the KKK. It was only demon Christians, they explained. Just like this enemy of the state who dared have Bible studies in his house. He made ‘em form the witch hunt...just like the nig-er in the noose made ‘em do the lynching. Do you know how easy it is to use the state and paper to demonize the target while he’s in prison and can’t defend himself.


25 posted on 07/08/2012 10:12:19 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: trailhkr1

It’s not exactly like Arizona is running out of land. There are options for him to locate his church than right up against people that just want a quiet place to live.


26 posted on 07/08/2012 10:12:41 AM PDT by BobL
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To: UCANSEE2

He built that after the harassment began and the State told him he could have people in his living room. I would have done worse for the mob of witchey neighbors. He was pretty Christian about it.


27 posted on 07/08/2012 10:14:17 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: publius911

You don’t understand the power of hatred’s witch hunts. That’s okay.


28 posted on 07/08/2012 10:16:32 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: trailhkr1

A nude bar is not a religion. For you it might be, though. ;/


29 posted on 07/08/2012 10:17:59 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: PowderMonkey

30 posted on 07/08/2012 10:18:54 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live thnrough it anyway)
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To: JimSEA

Well there is alot of things people do protected under the first amendment. I have to tolerate religious people gathering in their homes and so do you. I have to tolerate communists having political meeting in their homes and so do you. They have to tolerate conservatives and libertarians having meetings in their homes and so do you and I. That is life in a free country.

You are going to have property owners meeting in their homes. It’s none of your business. Intolerants usually complain about parking because that is where they can see the occasion and get irritated. Cops in the US would tell them to get bent unless there was a car parked illegally that they would ticket.


31 posted on 07/08/2012 10:24:46 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: muawiyah

They have a right of self-defense. God gave it to them.


So if they bring in bad people who victimize the neighbors with crime, the second amendment provides a remedy to that while at the same time protecting the first amendment rights of property owners to conduct Bible studies in their homes. Feeling endangered by Christians is a tad odd, by the way.


32 posted on 07/08/2012 10:30:24 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: publius911

When neighbors start acting like comunists...Bible studies are outlawed in China, too.


33 posted on 07/08/2012 10:31:48 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Sequoyah101
Yes, there are those magic christians who, in order to fulfill the need to be persecuted in order to be validated, go out of their way to be obnoxious and make spectacles of themselves

who are complemented by the CINOs who invisible and not not make spectacles of themselves, lest it cost them something in this world.

34 posted on 07/08/2012 10:44:48 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began,)
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To: Sequoyah101
Yes, there are those magic christians who, in order to fulfill the need to be persecuted in order to be validated, go out of their way to be obnoxious and make spectacles of themselves

who are complemented by the CINOs who invisible and not make spectacles of themselves, lest it cost them something in this world.

35 posted on 07/08/2012 10:45:18 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began,)
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To: trailhkr1
Here is the actual title:

Michael Salman wants to build a church in his backyard. His neighbors aren't buying it

36 posted on 07/08/2012 10:47:23 AM PDT by Kinder Gentler Machinegun Hand
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To: SaraJohnson
Feeling endangered by Christians is a tad odd, by the way.

It is normal. People generally don't want their sins pointed out to them. Consider how deeply homosexual addicts hate those who hold that homosexual behavior is a sin. The same applies to addicts of pornography and drugs/alchohol. And don't even start with smokers ...

37 posted on 07/08/2012 10:49:17 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began,)
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To: muawiyah
It’s one thing to hold small private weekly Bible studies in one’s home for members of one’s church, to hold political meetings with like minded people, hold private AA meetings at one’s home, host the occasional Tupperware or Pampered Chef parties, host private birthday parties or BBQ’s for family and friends on one’s private property. It is IMO, a completely matter to turn your private property in a zoned residential neighborhood into a regularly used commercial or not for profit full time enterprise; a public catering facility or nightclub, a commercial or NFP halfway house for recovering addicts and alcoholics, a commercial store or build a “church” or “mega church” in one’s back yard complete with athletic facilities and a for profit or a not for profit day care center without any regard to permits and existing zoning restrictions.

I’m all for personal and religious freedom and the reasonable freedom to use one’s private property as one wants to use it for their own private use, but then I’m also not against reasonable zoning laws. Without such restrictions, hearings and zoning applications, what would stop my next door neighbor from opening up a publically accessible nightclub, an “adult” book store or a for or not for profit swimming club or amusement park or pig farm in their back yard?

True story: back in the late ’70’s, my brother bought a very nice house on a seemly quiet street in Severna Park MD. His next door neighbor was collecting unemployment, workers comp and monthly federal disability checks for both him and his wife, neither of which appeared to be disabled or incapable of holding a job BTW.

The next door neighbor had also completed some sort of ministerial correspondence course that enabled him to become a “minister” and proudly claimed to my brother that this “loophole” let him claim his house as a “church” and that he wrote off his mortgage payments and all other household expenses on his tax return, not only getting his disability and workers comp checks but also living completely tax free as a “minister”. He even told my brother that he should do the same; it was such an “easy” scam.

But the guy’s “ministry” consisted solely of his “Youth Outreach Ministry” which was actually nightly beer keggers, pot and porn flicks for any teenage boy willing to pony up $20 as a “donation” to his “church”. My brother turned a blind eye until the partying and noise, the teenage boys wandering into his yard and puking in his bushes at all hours of the night, the 10 to 20 cars parked on the neighbor’s lawn every night, got way, way out of hand. My brother called the local police, zoning authorities and eventually the IRS. The neighbor and his wife were eventually found out to be fraudulently collecting disability and unemployment payments and then the IRS came calling one day and the guy was lead away in handcuffs, much to the cheering and to the great relief of his neighbors.

I’m not a big fan of big government or stupid, overly restrictive and unreasonable zoning restrictions or the IRS; I’m the total opposite of the neighborhood busybody, usually adhering to the “live and let live” philosophy, but if that guy (my brother’s former neighbor) was my neighbor …. Yea, I’d use zoning laws, the IRS and anything at my disposal to shut that scam artist down and bring peace and civility back to my neighborhood.

38 posted on 07/08/2012 10:59:03 AM PDT by MD Expat in PA
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To: SaraJohnson

Uh, it is wrong to invite your neighbors to shoot down your guests, particularly when simple adherence to the existing laws would have eliminated the cause for such action.


39 posted on 07/08/2012 11:06:58 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

There was adherence to existing laws before the witch hunt began. You are the one who claimed fear of the Christians victimizing you. You have second amendment rights.


40 posted on 07/08/2012 11:10:02 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson

Oh, BTW Sarahjohnson, unless they are baptised by full body immersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and sit down to receive communion of both bread and grapejuice (non alcoholic) there is always going to be some question about how Christian they really are ~ or maybe you don’t see that.


41 posted on 07/08/2012 11:10:02 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Oh, BTW Sarahjohnson, unless they are baptised by full body immersion, three times forward, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, and sit down to receive communion of both bread and grapejuice (non alcoholic) there is always going to be some question about how Christian they really are ~ or maybe you don’t see that.


It’s not up to me or the state to decide who is Christian ad who is not Christian.


42 posted on 07/08/2012 11:16:10 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson
Feeling endangered by Christians is a tad odd, by the way.
Fred Phelps/Westboro Baptist CHURCH make a lot of people, including devout Christians, feel endangered.

Calling something or someone Christian doesn't necessarily make it so; neither does calling oneself "pastor" or "prophet" necessarily make you called of God.

"By their fruits, ye shall know them," and this guy has sown some pretty bitter fruit.

43 posted on 07/08/2012 11:38:27 AM PDT by ApplegateRanch (Love me, love my guns!©)
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To: af_vet_1981

Can’t rationalize irrational can you?


44 posted on 07/08/2012 12:35:13 PM PDT by Sequoyah101 (You've been screwed by your government.)
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To: trailhkr1

Rev. Al said James Brown should be exempt.


45 posted on 07/08/2012 12:48:13 PM PDT by Terry Mross ( To all my kin: Do not attempt to contact me as long as you love obama.)
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To: ApplegateRanch

So every Christian targeted by mobs of atheists, witches and the State are now ‘Fred Phelps’, huh.

You should live in China. Bible studies in your home are considered highly dangerous and evil there, too. Only communists can meet in their homes. Everyone else is an enemy of the society and State.

Hey, now that I think about it, hasn’t our government named pro-life Christians domestic terrorists...evil like Fred Phelps. I bet you have been raising cain about that little violation of the constitution with our government, too. Maybe they are all Fred Phelps sensitivity offenders. /s/


46 posted on 07/08/2012 12:48:27 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson

We most likely do! Do a little research for yourself for once. Bible Studies are held in homes all over Our Great America everyday! Yet, we hear nothing of them being shutdown, nor even harassed. I have held a Bible Study in my home once a week for the last five years, sometimes up to 20-25 participants and never a complaint. I would love to blame this single incident on the Bamster Muslim terrorist in the Oval Office, but I believe the Neighbor’s version on this one. You are welcome to flame me all You wish on this one, I will take it with a grain of Salt!


47 posted on 07/08/2012 1:42:39 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (May GOD SAVE OUR AMERICA from ALLAH and his Prophet, HUSSEIN OBAMA!!)
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To: SaraJohnson

Dear Sara,

Your logic is termed “AREO FRITTO!” in Milano, Italia!
Psst! Incase your translation skills are not fully developed, I will graciously translate that term for You!

“FRIED AIR!” or as we Americans call it! “HOT AIR!”

TRP


48 posted on 07/08/2012 1:50:31 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (May GOD SAVE OUR AMERICA from ALLAH and his Prophet, HUSSEIN OBAMA!!)
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To: SaraJohnson

My Gosh, Sara, You really are unusual in your logic! I pray with all of my heart never ever to meet You, ever!


49 posted on 07/08/2012 1:55:00 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (May GOD SAVE OUR AMERICA from ALLAH and his Prophet, HUSSEIN OBAMA!!)
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To: ApplegateRanch

You forgot to mention to the airhead that Obama HUSSEIN claims he is a Christian! Then why does Farrakkon tell his Masses that “Obama is their Prophet from ALLAH!” If Obama was now a real Christian, Farrakkon woulld be calling for his Masses to treat Obama as an “APOSTATE!” which isn’’t pleasant.


50 posted on 07/08/2012 2:06:11 PM PDT by True Republican Patriot (May GOD SAVE OUR AMERICA from ALLAH and his Prophet, HUSSEIN OBAMA!!)
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