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To: betty boop
I hope that you do not think that somehow, I am engaged in the pursuit of a "proof" for the existence of God.

No, I don't think that. (And conversely, I hope you don't think I'm pursuing a proof for the nonexistence of God.)

At the same time, you have posted that

a living system — an "open" system — cannot "emerge" from a causally closed system as defined by physical, material, or mechanical presuppositions. Something else is required for life. And as increasingly recognized these days, that something else is information — which is not a tangible, material thing.

And my impression is that you contend that the information must have been supplied by an agent outside the system, which may not be a proof of God but is evidence for some First Cause. Right now, I'm just exploring whether the impossibility of a material basis for the emergence of life is necessarily as impossible as you've stated.

142 posted on 07/29/2013 9:59:56 AM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; Alamo-Girl; MHGinTN; TXnMA; marron; YHAOS; metmom; hosepipe
No, I don't think that. (And conversely, I hope you don't think I'm pursuing a proof for the nonexistence of God.)

No, I don't think that!!!

You wrote, "...my impression is that you contend that the information must have been supplied by an agent outside the system, which may not be a proof of God but is evidence for some First Cause."

YES: I suspect that the information must have a cause "outside" the system, because I strongly doubt it could have arisen by "natural causes"; i.e., from "within" the system. But I'll keep an open mind if someone can show me why this isn't true.

And you nail me on "First Cause." Yep — I do believe that a First Cause very likely had to be involved. But here I'm thinking in Aristotelian terms.

You'll remember Aristotle's First Cause, a/k/a/ the Uncaused Cause, a/k/a/ the "Prime Mover." The reasoning goes like this: If the Universe had a Beginning — which if the Big Bang Theory is correct, it had — then logically, there could be nothing "before" it. This looks to me like an "ex nihilo" situation — a something that comes out of a nothing, or "No-thing."

But really, we can know nothing by way of science that can "verify" or "falsify" this. Indeed, the first few milliseconds after the Big Bang, science doesn't even "work": There is no Planck Time, no Planck Length; science is simply inoperable under conditions where space and time haven't even kicked in yet.

So we can't even get back to the Beginning, let alone conjecture what "preceded" it — which if it was in fact the Beginning, nothing did.

And then, don't forget the Singularity. I think all the "initial conditions" of an evolutionary universe were specified there, all at once. This Singularity may well contain the "information," or "instruction set," that guides universal evolution, and orders it.

Well, that's how I'm thinking through these issues. FWIW.

HHTVL, I got a reply from my friend, AG. It was totally lovely. I'd share it with you instantly; but then recalled I hadn't asked his permission to do that.

So I wrote back and asked for permission!

If he gives it — I expect he will — I'll send it right along to you.

Best wishes to my gracious correspondent, HHTVL!

143 posted on 07/29/2013 1:10:12 PM PDT by betty boop
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