Ukraine: Can Someone Explain…

self | jimjohn

[jimjohn]

And so like everyone else, I am staring to see the pictures/videos oozing out of the streets on the Ukraine, but forgive me for being totally confused about what the battles are about. Clearly, there are folks really upset about something, but I simply can’t believe the reasons that are given. Let me explain…

[foundedonpurpose]

Ukraine is a split country. The US and Russia are playing this. The Us need’s to sit it’s bloated fat ass down, and cut it’s government into 1/8 of what it is... I will not hold my breath. Why is the US meddling in the Ukraine with John McCain??? So the bankers can rob and enslave the Ukrainians as well. If they don’t go with the program, war is the answer....

Check Zero Hedge over the last 5 days for a good snap shot, from around the world. The US media is a joke, only a tool of the government.

Tic,toc,tic,toc....

Can’t wait for the reports of armored divisions from Austria heading west, other countries to follow.

Thank GOD for youtube.

[Viennacon]

This is not to mention the damage on the other end, and Britain is saturated with cheap labor.

[Jack Hydrazine]

The Kievan Rus still affects the Ukraine today.

[Jack Hydrazine]

Ukraine suffering population decline
http://www.mercatornet.com/demography/view/12494

[Viennacon]

It’s dangerous in Eastern Europe, the reduction of these populations. Look what Japan is going through. Russia wised up and started cracking down on abortions and increasing the life expectancy.

[The KG9 Kid]

When you live under a corrupt system, it is easy to find scapegoats.

[Jack Hydrazine]

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-protesters-create-39-fortress-39-resist-feared-200947661.html;_ylt=A2KJ3CWD0OJSz2MAkUvQtDMD

[When do we get liberated?]

You know you live in East Europe when the EU looks good!

[cunning_fish]

>>When you live under a corrupt system, it is easy to find scapegoats.<<

Bingo. But the answer is not a revolution once or twice each decade.
Ukrainians need to wise up.
Changing one cronies with another doesn’t help much.
We have witnessed tyrannies and crony governments evolving into powerful republics in this century and it wasn’t via revolutions.
Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea - all started after WWII the way Ukraine, Latvia and the rest of these did in 1990.
Where is Singapore and where is Ukraine now?
The lesson is poor people aren’t really interested in freedoms. They would either sell liberty for a dime or give it away to populists promising hope and change.
That is what we see in Ukraine right now.
They are about to rejects a Russian deal bearing a real capabilities to sustained economic growth for a “change” of their corrupt elites with who knows who for a “hope” of European integration. Sounds familiar, isn’t it?

[Ivan Mazepa]

This thing initially started pretty small and could have just died down, but one police crack down later ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdRSXESoQd0 ), the issue no longer was pro-EU or no EU, but the brutality of the crackdown that Yanukovich had ordered.

What followed was the violent beating of a journalist critical of the president (you can google for images of Tatiana Chornovol, but it’s upsetting). More arrests, more beatings, more injuries on both sides, more protests, more arrests...until two weeks ago when Yanukovich passed what have been called “dictatorial laws”. These were rejected outright by the protesters and things got really crazy, molotovs and all.

By my count, there are 5 protesters dead: three shot, one beaten and thrown off the roof, one kidnapped from a hospital and beaten to death ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10598227/A-heros-grave-in-Ukraines-west-for-the-father-who-went-east-for-the-cause.html )
Last couple of days, more stories about prisoner abuse by the police, and for the first time, protests outside of the capital. One policeman was killed yesterday but protesters aren’t claiming the responsibility.

It’s a bit like a game of chicken now, Cold War between protesters and Yanukovich, see how much they can get away with without resorting to lethal weapons. If police really opens fire, then that’s it, get your Kalashnikovs ready

[AllAmericanGirl44]

bkmk

[Ivan Mazepa]

>>>>>The eastern half has good employment (though relatively low pay) in industrial manufacturing, many of the factories partnered up with Russian firms just across the border. Unfortunately, this doesn’t extend to western Ukraine, where corrupt bureaucracy and poor management has led to an economy in ruins.
It would be more accurate to say that all of Ukraine is in economic ruin. Factories in the east are heavily subsidized - that's one way to keep unemployment lower. Mainstay of the economy in the West are the migrant workers who bring in 7-9 Billion USD annually, which is pretty significant when comparing to the country's annual budget (please don't make me look for the reference, but I'm sure that's the number) This is a minor consolation, but at least this money goes to the family members directly, bypassing taxation by the Ukrainian government. Western Ukraine is not a consumer of the Russian gas and doesn't have the trade with Russia; exact opposite for the Eastern part. The $15 billion and cheaper gas that Russia is promising goes directly to maintaining these eastern subsidized factories, so we agree there.

Easy to point to the obvious, the billionaires in the East should have been re-investing their billions to update their facilities and look for new customers, rather than exposing yourself to a client like Russia who on a whim can shut off its trade like that.

>>>>Some here have speculated that George Soros is involved since this is his modus operandi. I’m not so sure.
George Soros on the Grassy Knoll again? :) Ukrainian protesters don't know who he is or what to do with him

The protesters are not pro-EU per se, but more anti-USSR in their foreign orientation. However, EU is no longer the main cause of the protests, it's something like third or fourth on their lists of demands

[Ivan Mazepa]

>>>> Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea - all started after WWII the way Ukraine, Latvia and the rest of these did in 1990. Where is Singapore and where is Ukraine now?

My dad said they should've cleaned the apparatchiks offices with a Kalashnikov in 1991, start with new people, like in Chech Republic. But no, they went with "stability" that the old communists supposedly offered. Ukraine looks very stable about now

[cunning_fish]

>>>My dad said they should’ve cleaned the apparatchiks offices with a Kalashnikov in 1991, start with new people, like in Chech Republic. But no, they went with “stability” that the old communists supposedly offered. Ukraine looks very stable about now<<<

Who are these “new people”? Communist apparatchics are certainly not a single breed of bad leaders in this world.

In order to have a a normal society, Ukrainians has to develop a sense of responsibility.

If you are going to revolt and put another Czars to office, just to replace previous, who hasn’t met your expectations it is no more than that said circles.

Authorities are a shadow of society in the first place. Corrupt officials are coming from that same societies. A position of power is that makes difference with the rest of the population. Being an inept crook is not coming with a parliament member card.

[cunning_fish]

>>>It would be more accurate to say that all of Ukraine is in economic ruin. Factories in the east are heavily subsidized - that’s one way to keep unemployment lower. Mainstay of the economy in the West are the migrant workers who bring in 7-9 Billion USD annually, which is pretty significant when comparing to the country’s annual budget (please don’t make me look for the reference, but I’m sure that’s the number) This is a minor consolation, but at least this money goes to the family members directly, bypassing taxation by the Ukrainian government. Western Ukraine is not a consumer of the Russian gas and doesn’t have the trade with Russia; exact opposite for the Eastern part. The $15 billion and cheaper gas that Russia is promising goes directly to maintaining these eastern subsidized factories, so we agree there.

Easy to point to the obvious, the billionaires in the East should have been re-investing their billions to update their facilities and look for new customers, rather than exposing yourself to a client like Russia who on a whim can shut off its trade like that.<<<

So it’s a revolt of poor “mainstay” Western tax-free gast-arbeiters, cleaning toilets in Poland and Germany, against an Eastern “fat-cat” decadent industrial billionaires, stealing from the Western poor via bailouts (provided by whom? a gast-arbeiters who pay no taxes?)?
And there are still enough money to maintain an infrastructure and welfare in the West while the mainstay of western economy is collectively out of “decadent industries” and actively “bypassing taxes” hanging around neighboring countries or sitting on their behinds dreaming about better future.
Maybe a burden like that is a real reason of Eastern hardships and inability to “update facilities”?
Nice to see you have injected a little class warfare here too, but I don’t think you’ll fly far with EU with that kind of mindset.

[Robert357]

I'll give you my 2 cents.

The Ukraine has been exploited by the Russians for hundreds of years. Stalin starved and shipped people of the Ukraine of to camps to be worked to death. When the Nat's invaded during WW2 they were welcomed by some as liberators. And yet the economy of the Ukraine is now near bankruptcy. They need Russian natural gas and money. Russians/Soviets brought in people to repopulate the country after the starvation, deportation, and world war. And yet some now want the economic certainty of good old days of Soviet rule.

The Orange revolution changed things and gave the western half of the country hope for freedom and economic health. The current leader took over, the previous leader was charge with corruption and sent to jail. The EU felt it was all political and required as part of a trade agreement that the jailed leader be set free to seek medical treatment in Germany.

The country was on the verge of bankruptcy and the trade deal with the EU offered economic hope and righting what some saw as a political wrong. It was scheduled for a vote....and then the current leader said no. In rode Putin with promises of reduced fuel costs and loans to prevent bankruptcy.

Oh one last thing, some of the Ukrainian cities like Sevastopol are critical Russian military posts needed for Russian defense. The Russian do not want to loose these critical assets to the EU or NATO.

Historic wrongs, politics, economics, desperation, critical military infrastructure and a divide people.

[Grzegorz 246]

It started with massive peaceful protests, when current president decided not to sign a trade agreement with EU at the last minute, which in this case is also a major geopolitical decision, a poor country in the center of Europe can be allied these days with either EU or Russia and as much as faggotish EU is, majority of people over there would rather like to see closer ties with the “west” than with Russia, geography plays a role over there, people in western part are overwhelmingly “pro-western” when a lot of people in the east are rather pro-Russian, however this division is not as strong as some suggest, Austrians and many Swiss speak German but it doesn't mean they want their country to become a part of Germany... People in the east would be openly against joining NATO, however closer ties with EU were not that controversial, current president and gov were voted in with that agenda...

When people started protesting, government used security forces with full brutality against them, most of normal people run away, who's left protesting in the capital are mainly “fanatics” throwing molotovs at security forces, however protests are now also in many other cities including some in the east. People over there are simply disgusted with their “elites”, they are relatively well educated and hard working but live in a dirt poor country due to incompetence of their politicians and 3rd world style corruption. Read here in #57 what happens on a daily basis over there http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3115797/posts?q=1&;page=51

It's not yet some Mad Max chaos, outside of places where protests take place people are living relatively normal life, however If they keep using live bullets against protesting people, everything may happen, for example some of government forces may switch sides and then we will see full scale civil war... hopefully that won't happen.

[Joe Boucher]

a new leader in the Ukraines trying to get the country out of the western sphere and back under “soviet” influence or doomination.
Lot of folks don’t take kindly to being under russia’s boot

[Jimmy Valentine]

I spoke my friends in Ukraine this morning. This started over a proposed trade agreement with the EU. It has morphed into a serious protest over government corruption and the self dealing of Pres Yanukovich and his cronies. The news focus is on Kiev but the protests have spread to Donetz, Dneperpetrovsk, and many other major cities. Internet and cell phone see ice is intermittent and people are blaming the government

This could wind up in revolution with Yanukovich eventually getting “Ceaucescued”.

[Jimmy Valentine]

Disagree Ukrainians self identify as Ukrainians and do not care much for Russians There are still people who remember The Holodomor and the famine that Stalin caused

As to corruption it is not east or west Ukraine but the government in Kiev lead by the convicted rapist and criminal Yanukovich that the root of the problem. He should be in jail along with Yulia Timoshenko