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To: zipper
Well zipper, the scenario you lay out is plausible. From my perspective as commercial airline pilot you made some of the steps much more difficult than need be, but ok, it mostly works.

Most of us pilots in my sphere of influence do not believe there was any climbing and certainly no rapid descent. It would not have served any purpose unless there was a struggle involved. Remember the transponder is off and Malaysian military radar can not accurately know for certain altitude from the distance all this was suppose to occur. Most importantly, in any scenario, who knows, who cares about the climb and descent. Mostly a sideshow element.

It never occurred to me to think about before this incident, but yes it would very simple to kill off passengers and most crewmembers. Again absolutely no reason to climb to accomplish. Certainly one would not descend rapidly if that is what you are trying to accomplish. 777 chemical oxygen generators last 22 minutes. HOWEVER that 22 minutes takes into account the plane is descending. IF the plane does NOT descend, the oxygen lasts less than the 22 minutes. How long is anyones guess.

The Captain would have been acutely aware of the Helios flight 522 crash where a B737 flew for almost 2 hours with the pilots and passengers dead. HOWEVER, an off duty cabin crewmember survived the whole period using the portable oxygen bottles. He made acess to the cockpit, but did not know how to establish communication and of course how to fly the plane. He made a heroic effort but ended up spinning it end.

ADS-B is part of the transponder system. You turn off transponder, ADS-B is turned off. Again has no meaning.Turning off ACARS much more simple than many make it out to be.

Autopilot automatically disconnects when an engine fails due to many reasons. All very simple, all very logical to the system. IF pilot still alive, he would just re connect. If he is dead, the plane plummets from that position. The failed engine provides too much drag and aerodynamics are interrupted.

Pilot suicide has as much possibility as any other theory right now. I hope you understand that most of in the pilot community, again in my sphere of influence see alot of problems with that theory. Mostly because we spend our whole career protecting what we consider to be the most valuable commodity on board that plane. That would be the passengers. Also, we have established relationship with many many of the cabin crewmembers. In and off the plane, on the road, we would do anything to make sure they are protected and safe. Not in our psych to kill them. Yes there have been two recent examples, but it is hard to accept.

78 posted on 03/26/2014 7:27:55 AM PDT by saywhatagain
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To: saywhatagain
I'll have to address these one at a time.

Most of us pilots in my sphere of influence do not believe there was any climbing and certainly no rapid descent. It would not have served any purpose unless there was a struggle involved. Remember the transponder is off and Malaysian military radar can not accurately know for certain altitude from the distance all this was suppose to occur.

I agree there is no obvious need for climbing to 45,000 feet, or for a rapid descent (and no it couldn't have been 40,000 ft/min as reported), though I can think of a few possible reasons. Distracting the passengers and flight attendants, making them think maneuvering is in progress in the front so take your seats and strap in, avoiding a sighting from another aircraft, confounding military radar operators trying to plot a course, among others. But certainly it was not needed to kill the flight attendants and passengers. Manual pressurization could have taken care of that, much more quickly and effortlessly.

We have to accept as fact what the Malaysians (confirmed by the Thai's) said about the flight path. True, the altitudes aren't necessarily accurate but military air defense radars are designed to detect altitudes too -- unlike civilian (primary) radars. Think about it -- if you are about to direct an intercept you need an altitude. The altitude (and to some extent the speed) could tell you a lot about what kind of threat it is, and what its intentions are. You direct the interceptor to the target, and the interceptor locks on with its own radar when it gets close. But you need more information on the target than 'surface to 45,000', of course.

I don't know exactly what kink of AD radar the Malaysians have, but someone posted a link to an article about ours (entire US coastline), and it definitely can discriminate altitudes.

84 posted on 03/26/2014 8:47:46 AM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: saywhatagain
Autopilot automatically disconnects when an engine fails due to many reasons. All very simple, all very logical to the system....The failed engine provides too much drag and aerodynamics are interrupted.

True for some aircraft, but not true under normal circumstances for a 777. The 777 has TAC (thrust asymmetry compensation).

Thrust Asymmetry Compensation The thrust asymmetry compensation (TAC) system significantly reduces uncommanded flight path changes associated with an engine failure. TAC continually monitors engine data to determine the thrust level from each engine. If the thrust level on one engine differs by 10 percent or more from the other engine, TAC automatically adds rudder to minimize yaw. When TAC is operating, the pilot can still recognize the initial onset of an engine failure through airplane roll/yaw cues. These roll/yaw cues are greatly reduced when compared to an airplane operating without TAC. After several seconds, TAC applies sufficient rudder to make it possible for the pilot or autopilot to center the control wheel....[www.smartcockpit.com]

After the second engine flameout, the autopilot would drop off line, as would the last generator.

88 posted on 03/26/2014 11:35:58 AM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: saywhatagain
ADS-B is part of the transponder system. You turn off transponder, ADS-B is turned off. Again has no meaning. Turning off ACARS much more simple than many make it out to be.

Right. That's not the part I was thinking of -- it doesn't turn off ADS-C ("contract", I know I said ADS-B, not the same), assuming it was in use (maybe not, it was a short overwater segment). Yes, I think turning off the ACARS (or disabling its communications) could be accomplished without pulling circuit breakers. I'm sure he had all this thought out beforehand -- except disabling the SATCOM. He screwed up that part.

89 posted on 03/26/2014 12:15:36 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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To: saywhatagain
777 chemical oxygen generators last 22 minutes. HOWEVER that 22 minutes takes into account the plane is descending. IF the plane does NOT descend, the oxygen lasts less than the 22 minutes. How long is anyones guess.

Not sure what you mean by that. It's a chemical generator, not dependent on pressure altitude as far as I know. When the chemical reaction is over, no more oxygen.

If it were liquid oxygen supplying the masks (an option on the 777, but I don't think MH had this) then the oxygen for the passengers lasts longer with higher altitude (assuming they can stay alive with the lower partial pressures).

I don't think the pax lasted more than 30 minutes. The flight attendants probably a lot longer on the walkaround bottle -- but not for 7 or 8 hours!

90 posted on 03/26/2014 12:47:57 PM PDT by zipper ("The Second Amendment IS my carry permit!" -- Ted Nugent)
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