When the French "Shot Down" an F-22

Real Clear Defense ^ | September 23, 2014 | David Axe

[C19fan]

Evidence released last year confirms that a French fighter pilot once “killed” an American F-22 Raptor stealth fighter in mock combat.

Although not unprecedented, the simulated shoot-down is still a big deal for a couple reasons.

For one, the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 is supposed to be the most fearsome warplane in history, a quarter-billion-dollar-per-plane technological marvel that flies higher and faster than its opponents while avoiding detection by radar. The Pentagon is counting on a tiny number of the pricey Raptors — slightly more than 180 — to ward off potentially much larger numbers of enemy planes for the foreseeable future. Every mock dogfight the F-22 loses undermines the Pentagon’s plans for air dominance.

[C19fan]

Sounds like a repeat of Vietnam. The F-22 like the F-4 Phantom is designed for beyond visual range combat but all the advantage goes away if one finds itself in a knife fight up close. Just like the F-4 has some disadvantages going up against lighter MIGs in dogfights the heavier F-22 has similar disadvantages against the Generation 4.5 fighters.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Relying on a few whiz-bang, super tech aircraft is a strategy for losing.

[Kozak]

How many F 15s have been shot down by enemy fighters?
How many have they shot down?

[armydawg505]

This story might be more believable if it was some other country besides France. As is, baloney.

[grobdriver]

designed for beyond visual range combat but all the advantage goes away if one finds itself in a knife fight up close

Or when ROEs require visual identification before engaging, as helped to neuter the Phoenix missile's advantage.

[quadrant]

Its worse than Vietnam. We've allowed ourselves to be warped into the place of the Germans in WWII, who allowed themselves to believe that a few sophisticated weapons (from tanks to jet airplanes) could overcome the numerical superiority of the Allies.

[Texas Fossil]

Bump!

[Blood of Tyrants]

By my count none, but not because they were against similar aircraft.

[afsnco]

Roger that. Quantity has a quality all its own.

[Arlis]

I thought I read somewhere that the Indian Air Force has whooped our F-22’s when they first came out.........anyone remember this?

[Hulka]

Did not happen. Ever.

We had an exercise using F-15’s and we used less that sound tactics so the indians could close to the merge and then we reigned in our BFM skills to see what they could do. It is useless to exercise against someone when you ‘kill’ them pre-merge and never get in close, and after that, once close, to whack them easily. . .we held back to provide them training while at the same time evaluate their training, tactics and hardware. Indians are she-ite when it comes to skills, no matter what kind of hardware they wrap themselves in.

Regarding the F-22, NO freaking way did that happen. Did not happen. We had a time where an F-18 had a pipper tracking an F-22 within 1500 feet, but it was not a ‘real’ kill—the F-18 was ‘dead’ and out of the fight and headed back to re-set and the F-22 flew by. French are not even close, especially when it comes to BFM and the F-22, as the F-22 can maneuver AND retain and increase energy like no other platform.

[Hulka]

Post 11, please.

[Hulka]

Post 11, please.

[JimRed]

Then there’s always the LUCK factor. In the submarine service I hear they used to have a saying, “If you’re not lucky, we can’t use you”.

[Tallguy]

AFAIK, they were F-15’s and they were operating by rules that prevented BVR engagement & AWAC’s support — ie. Not how we prefer to fight.

[Tallguy]

http://m.in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/02/16/cope_india_how_the_iaf_rewrote_the_rules_of_air_combat_33111.html

Here was the exercise in question...

[Arlis]

Thanks to you and Hulka for the clarification......memory just ain’t what it used to be when you are hitting 70.........