Lincoln: The Founders did not make America racist or slaver. They inherited it that way

PGA Weblog ^

[DiogenesLamp]

There is no constitutional right for states to secede.

That's because it is given by a higher power; God.

Therefore it trumps "constitution" as a source of rights. (God is actually the only source of rights. The Constitution does not give rights, it merely recognizes some of those that God has given. )

The Constitution says nothing about secession, because all that needed to be said on the subject was said 11 years earlier in the Declaration of Independence.

[Pikachu_Dad]

roflol. Please stick to the facts.

[Pikachu_Dad]

Facts... The seven State confederacy started the war.

Even a blind mole knows that.
...

“In the cabinet meeting, Toombs warned Davis that firing on Fort Sumter would inaugurate the Civil War.

“Mr. President, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North. The firing upon that fort will inaugurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen.” [Robert Toombs to Jefferson Davis, quoted in W. A. Swanberg, _First Blood: The Story of Fort Sumter,_ p. 286]”

[Loud Mime]

Bump for reading when I get back to California.

[DiogenesLamp]

Even a blind mole knows that.

*ONLY* blind moles know that. Everyone who has been spoon fed this narrative for their entire lives know that, but as Lincoln said: "Just because you call a tail a leg, doesn't make it so."

Trouble is, when you look at real, accurate facts and proof, Lincoln started the war by launching a belligerent war fleet.

Did you even know about the fleet? Had you ever heard that Lincoln sent warships to attack the Confederates?

My bet is that you have not, because only the official narrative gets put in the History books, and since the powers that be since 1861 have decreed that the Confederates started it, that is exactly what approved history books are going to reflect.

Here is a picture of one of the warships Lincoln sent to attack the Confederates.

[wardaddy]

C25

If only other south haters here and at neocon central were so honest

Lol

[Pelham]

No subtlety there, dude gets right to the point. Fits right in with freeper yankeefa. He hails from The Middle Kingdom but his sentiments are no different from the South Asian Subcontinent. They both despise the indigenous peoples (us) and the GOP Estab is eager to help them eliminate all memory of the people they hate.

[Oorang]

Very well stated, thank you.

[OIFVeteran]

Considering that James Madison, the father of the constitution, said this about secession during the nullifications crisis of 1832;

James Madison letter on nullification crisis
December 23, 1832, Montpellier.

“Dr. Sir I have received yours of the 19th, inclosing some of the South Carolina papers. There are in one of them some interesting views of the doctrine of secession; one that had occurred to me, and which for the first time I have seen in print; namely that if one State can at will withdraw from the others, the others can at will withdraw from her, and turn her, nolentem, volentem, out of the union. Until of late, there is not a State that would have abhorred such a doctrine more than South Carolina, or more dreaded an application of it to herself. The same may be said of the doctrine of nullification, which she now preaches as the only faith by which the Union can be saved.

I partake of the wonder that the men you name should view secession in the light mentioned. The essential difference between a free Government and Governments not free, is that the former is founded in compact, the parties to which are mutually and equally bound by it. Neither of them therefore can have a greater fight to break off from the bargain, than the other or others have to hold them to it......

It is high time that the claim to secede at will should be put down by the public opinion; and I shall be glad to see the task commenced by one who understands the subject.”

And further considering that George Washington suppress the whiskey rebellion at the head of the Army, I think Lincoln’s actions would have been supported by most of the founders.

[OIFVeteran]

Your 90% of blacks wanted out of America is patently untrue. Blacks and their leaders thought of themselves as Americans and wanted to stay in America. In fact black leaders expressed this sentiment to Lincoln and it is the reason he dropped any plans for resettlement of the freed slaves.

Blacks have fought and died in every war this country has been in. Over the course of my twenty plus years in the military I served with outstanding people of all races. This country is as much theirs as it is ours so take your racist nonsense and shove it up your ass.

[OIFVeteran]

No, your spreading lies and disinformation that has been disproved countless times on other threads. Your just too thick headed to realize it.

[DiogenesLamp]

Considering that James Madison, the father of the constitution, said this about secession during the nullifications crisis of 1832;

In these discussions, 1832 James Madison is constantly dragged out to refute what 1788 James Madison did in fact do.

James Madison was a member of the Virginia Ratification committee that came up with these words for Virginia's ratification of the US Constitution.

"...Do in the name and in behalf of the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression...

"May be resumed" is pretty clear in meaning that Virginia can take back the powers it is giving up to the Federal Government. 1832 Madison claims no one even suggested any such thing, yet there it is clearly written in the ratification statement created by the committee in which *MADISON* played a very prominent role.

And while we're at it, New York, (The other major player of the Civil War.) Also made it clear in it's ratification statement "That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness;".

So in fact, there is more proof that secession was not only understood to be lawful, it was the stated position of two of the most powerful states in the Union.

Rhode Island also made such a statement, but nobody cares about little Rhode Island.

[DiogenesLamp]

Look, I just destroyed your point in my last message. You and your side never disprove anything I post, you just claim you did and then you celebrate and give each other high fives.

You want to believe what you want to believe. I used to believe the same thing, but then the actual historical facts kept getting in the way, and finally I had to give up believing what I preferred to believe.

I now believe what the evidence indicates I should believe.

[morphing libertarian]

The war starts when confederates plotted to kill Lincoln when he transferred trains at the Baltimore train station one his way to his first inauguration. Pinkerton and others stopped the assassination. Killing the president to overthrow the election is sedition and an act of war.

[usconservative]

Men decide who is created equal and those are who are not equal.

All men are equal, some are just more equal than others.

[DiogenesLamp]

and it is the reason he dropped any plans for resettlement of the freed slaves.

I think that claim is very much in dispute. I believe Union General Butler said that Lincoln was discussing plans to expatriate former slaves the day before his assassination.

There are quite a lot of quotes out there that indicate Lincoln never did give up the plan to induce blacks to leave America.

Blacks have fought and died in every war this country has been in. Over the course of my twenty plus years in the military I served with outstanding people of all races. This country is as much theirs as it is ours...

And I agree with this sentiment. American blacks are Americans. They share our culture, (mostly) and they know no life other than American life. They would be as lost in another country as would any American, because other country's ways are not our ways.

[morphing libertarian]

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15793053-the-hour-of-peril

[Pikachu_Dad]

Everyone knows about the relief expedition.

Did any warships attack? NOPE.

The U.S.S. Pawnee arrived only after the Fort had surrender.

Who started the war?

Gen P.T. Beauregard when he opened fire on Fort Sumter.

Why did Gen. P.T. open fire? He was ordered to do so by the Confederate Government.

Even the blind moles know this history.

Got another lie to spin your way out total defeat?

[DiogenesLamp]

The war starts when confederates plotted to kill Lincoln when he transferred trains at the Baltimore train station one his way to his first inauguration. Pinkerton and others stopped the assassination. Killing the president to overthrow the election is sedition and an act of war.

If you can establish that this was done at the direction of the Confederate government, then you may have a point. However, I think it was done by a bunch of individual hot heads who were unconnected with the official Confederate government.

Yes, I'm aware of the Pinkerton team rescuing Lincoln from that assassination attempt, but I have never heard that the Confederate government was in any way involved.

750,000 Americans would eventually die because Lincoln became President.

[Pikachu_Dad]

alternatively, the war began when the democrats opened fire on the Star of the West on Jan 9th. The Star had been dispatched to Fort Sumter by President Buchanan.

THE FIRST OF THE WAR.

WE publish herewith pictures of the United States steam-sloop Brooklyn, and of the steamship Star of the West, and of the steamship Marion, which three vessels figured so prominently in the movements of last week; and on page 37 we give a large plan of Charleston harbor, showing the forts, etc., together with a view of Fort Johnson. These pictures w ill enable our readers to realize what is going on in this most memorable contest of the present age.

On Wednesday morning, January 9, 1861, the first shots were fired At daybreak on that morning at the steamship Star of the West, with 250 United States troops on board, attempted to enter the harbor of Charleston for the purpose of communicating with Fort Sumter. The people of Charleston had been warned of her coming and of her errand by telegraph. They determined to prevent her reaching Fort Sumter. Accordingly, as soon as she came within range, batteries on Morris Island and at Fort Moultrie opened on her. The first shot was fired across her bows ; whereupon she increased her speed, and hoisted the stars and stripes. Other shots were then fired in rapid succession from Morris Island, two or more of which hulled the steamer, and compelled her to put about and go to sea. The accompanying picture shows the Star of the West as she entered Charleston harbor; the plan will explain the situation of the forts, and the position of the steamer when she was fired upon. The channel through which she passed runs close by Morris Island for some distance.
Fort Sumter made no demonstration, except at the port-holes, where guns were run out bearing on Morris Island.

About eleven o’clock A.M. on 9th a boat from Fort Sumter, bearing Lieutenant Hall with a white flag, approached the city. Lieutenant Hall had an interview with Governor Pickens, and was afterward escorted to his boat and re-embarked for Fort Sumter. The communication from Major Anderson was as follows :

MAJOR ANDERSON TO GOVERNOR PICKENS

” To His Excellency the Governor of South Carolina: “SIR,—Two of your batteries fired this morning on an unarmed vessel bearing the flag of my government. As I have not been notified that war has been declared by South Carolina against the United States, I can not but think this a hostile act, committed or authority. Under that hope I refrain from opening fire on your batteries. I have the honor, therefore, respectfully to ask whether the above-mentioned act—one which I believe without parallel in the history of our country or any other civilized government—was committed in obedience to your instructions, and notify you, if it is not disclaimed, that I regard it as an act of war, and I shall not, after reasonable time for the return of my messenger, permit any vessel to pass within the range of the guns of my fort.

“In order to save, as far as it is in my power, the shedding of blood, I beg you will take due notification of my decision for the good of all concerned. Hoping, however, your answer may justify a further continuance of forbearance on my part, I remain, respectfully,

” ROBERT ANDERSON.”

GOVERNOR PICKENS RESPONSE TO MAJOR ANDERSON

” Governor Pickens, after stating the position of South Carolina to the United States, says that any attempt to send United States troops into Charleston harbor to reinforce the fort would be regarded as an act of hostility, and in conclusion adds that any attempt to reinforce the troops at Fort Sumter, or to retake and resume possession of the forts within the waters of South Carolina, which Major Anderson abandoned after spiking the cannon and doing other damages, can not be regarded by the authorities of the State as indicative of any other purpose than the coercion of the State by the armed force of the Government.

“Special agents, therefore, have been off the bar to warn approaching vessels, armed and unarmed, having troops to reinforce Fort Sumter aboard, not to enter the harbor. Special orders have been given the commanders at the forts not to fire on such vessels until a shot across their bows should warn them of the prohibition of the State. Under these circumstances the Star of the West, it is understood, this morning attempted to enter the harbor with troops, after having been notified she could not enter, and consequently she was fired into. The act is perfectly justified by me.

“In regard to your threat about vessels in the harbor, it is only necessary for me to say you must be the judge of your responsibility. Your position in the harbor has been tolerated by the authorities of the State, and while the act of which you complain is in perfect consistency with the rights and duties of the State, it is not perceived how far the conduct you propose to adopt can find a parallel in the history of any country, or be reconciled with any other purpose than that of your government imposing on the State the condition of a conquered province.

http://sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/major-anderson-ft-sumter_Dir/star-of-the-west.htm#star-of-the-west