Posted on 05/19/2020 6:21:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
He hasn’t at all been debunked.
If the VA can send out a retrospective study the same is effectively done by Dr. Zelenko because the death rate among vulnerable populations has been published and that is in effect the control group whereas his rates from his vulnerable patients is the experimental group and his numbers are good.
Based on that alone our country should be making HCQ/Zinc available to doctors at the lowest level, that is for outpatients, such as at an urgent care facility. And the President should be instructing people to go to those facilities as soon as they feel the described symptoms of this virus.
Below is an English translation of a concluding paragraph from France about a report from Marseille.
Comparison of mortality rates by region and treatment with those of Germany
As of May 16, 2020, the national mortality rate was 21.6% (ratio of deaths to positive tested).
When we now look at the treatments used and here the data are at the level of the city of Marseille. The mortality rate, all positive people, all hospitals combined, is 3.1%. This rate increases to 8.6% for people who have not received the HCQ and AZ treatment. What is interesting to note is that this rate is 0.5% for patients who have received HCQ and AZ treatment.
For the record, the death rate in Germany is 4.5%.
In Marseille, the mortality rate is lower than that of Germany, probably because massive screening and early treatment have an ESSENTIAL effect.
RE: We should consider the Zelenko Protocol a gift from God to humanity.Understood; I’m in PA and AFAIK the same may be true here.IF you can get it.
Trump is fortunate in that he is PRESIDENT of the United States and his doctor is willing to prescribe it to him PROPHYLCATICALLY.
In my state, Doctors are NOT ALLOWED to prescribe it prophylactically and can only prescribe it when a patient is HOSPITALIZED, which is contrary to what Dr. Zelenko advises — he wants to prescribe it EARLY to PREVENT burdening hospitals with patients.
But elections - even state elections - have consequences. We have a Democrat governor, and an unusual, shall we say, chief of the health administration.
President Trump isn’t the governor of PA. What he can do - and is doing - is lead by example. His body, his choice. The disadvantage, if such it be, of being POTUS is that his doctor knows his patient is hi-profile and will get another doc if he isn’t satisfied. So it’s all on Mr. Trump - if his appreciation of the pros and cons is skewed, his doc will only push back so much.
But then, what business is it of Governor Wolfe if I want to subject my body to a drug which doesn’t distort anyone’s mental processes and is known to have only slight toxicity? He doesn’t have skin in the game, and any WuFlu patient DOES have skin in the game.
Plenty of people my age are in nursing homes, and I can’t say I’m impressed when the head health officer shoves WuFlu patients into nursing homes after taking *** mother out of a nursing home and installing her in a hotel.
RE: We should consider the Zelenko Protocol a gift from God to humanity.Understood; I’m in PA and AFAIK the same may be true here.IF you can get it.
Trump is fortunate in that he is PRESIDENT of the United States and his doctor is willing to prescribe it to him PROPHYLCATICALLY.
In my state, Doctors are NOT ALLOWED to prescribe it prophylactically and can only prescribe it when a patient is HOSPITALIZED, which is contrary to what Dr. Zelenko advises — he wants to prescribe it EARLY to PREVENT burdening hospitals with patients.
But elections - even state elections - have consequences. We have a Democrat governor, and an unusual, shall we say, chief of the health administration.
President Trump isn’t the governor of PA. What he can do - and is doing - is lead by example. His body, his choice. The disadvantage, if such it be, of being POTUS is that his doctor knows his patient is hi-profile and will get another doc if he isn’t satisfied. So it’s all on Mr. Trump - if his appreciation of the pros and cons is skewed, his doc will only push back so much.
But then, what business is it of Governor Wolfe if I want to subject my body to a drug which doesn’t distort anyone’s mental processes and is known to have only slight toxicity? He doesn’t have skin in the game, and any WuFlu patient DOES have skin in the game.
Plenty of people my age are in nursing homes, and I can’t say I’m impressed when the head health officer shoves WuFlu patients into nursing homes after taking *** mother out of a nursing home and installing her in a hotel.
That is pretty unbelievable, especially back in March. Especially considering that as of today, there are 1,528,661 cases in the US, which isn't even close to being 65% of the population, not in NYC, not anywhere else. Not only does that raise questions about what kind of testing he is doing, it also contradicts any attempt to show efficacy of a treatment, where the first step is to actually verify that the patient has the condition.
At 22:36, the interviewer asked when a paper is coming out. At 22:48, Zelenko answered "Next week." This video was uploaded on Apr 27--so where is this paper?
Yep, this guy is a quack.
I'll also mention that leaders in the Hasidic community were not happy with Zelenko, since his inflated claims of Covid-19 in that community were causing other people to shun them.
I realize that the image of the maverick scientist or physician working valiantly to find a cure at the last minute is romantic and very popular in science fiction shows. But reality does not work that way. In the real world, finding cures takes a lot of time and drudgery. In the real world, scientists work years to find treatments for life-threatening diseases. They know that people are dying every day that a treatment is not found, but they cannot speed up the process. It is physically impossible.
Some of the research programs I used to oversee were for investigational drugs that had been in development since the 1990s. Yes, if we could show that those drugs are effective and that the benefits outweigh the risks, we could save a lot of lives. But until we can show that, we are not pushing them into the patient care setting. And people continue to die because we can't overcome the laws of physics.
Dr. Zelenko belongs to the latter kind. And he does not even claim credit or originality for what he is doing. He cites past PUBLISHED studies made by doctors in China, South Korea and most recently in Marseille, France by Dr. Didier Raoult and his team. He also cites past studies he read in medical journals.
Charlatans love to cite studies, but that does not make them credible. They are counting on their intended audience not having the know-how to go look up those studies for themselves to see what they actually say. There are legitimate studies of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine at all different stages of the clinical trial process.
As for Zelenko’s having no published studies, WHY DOES HE HAVE TO PUBLISH ANYTHING? AS A DOCTOR, HE HAS ENOUGH PATIENTS TO KEEP HIS DAY BUSY. What he can do is REFER to published studies in the past.
Yes, if he is really showing something groundbreaking, he would publish. He has had plenty of time to do so. Publishing is one way that doctors establish their credentials.
RE: I realize that the image of the maverick scientist or physician working valiantly to find a cure at the last minute is romantic and very popular in science fiction shows.
I am not trying to create an image of anyone. I am trying to tell you that this is the situation we ALREADY FACE. You work with what you have and if there is sufficient science behind it, such as successful studies made in other countries, and successful existing cases, you TRY to replicate it. You don’t have many alternatives in an abnormal situation like we face now.
And your use of the word “maverick”is out of place here. Dr. Zelenko is ONE AMONG MANY doctors who are using this drug cocktail to treat their patients. I can cite several other names and even give you information on how to contact them. Are they all mavericks too, just because the Mainstream press ignore them?
RE: Charlatans love to cite studies, but that does not make them credible.
Ahh, but were the studies cited SOUND? Were the past studies actually made by researchers who have done their job and PUBLISHED THEM as best as they could? If so, then why not try to replicate them?
One does not say — hey charlatans exist and then based on this observation, tar and feather every doctor out there as potential charlatans.
Dr. Zelenko, in my view, is not a careless doctor. He specifically stated that he based his own treatment on what he already read in PUBLISHED papers,and on PAST CASES he has observed. His treatment was NOT original and he would be the first to tell you. what’s different is he had the chance to administer the protocol in a SPECIFIC COMMUNITY — The Hasidic Community that he serves.
Also, the HCQ dosage he applies to his patients are LESS than the dosage used for Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis, which have been used by patients for YEARS without issues.
AS for publishing his findings, I already told you that he isn’t the sort of person who keeps his work a mystery.
1) He MADE HIS PROTOCOL KNOWN TO EVERYONE — Dosage,patient profile, etc.
2) He organized a study with New York’s prestigious St. Francis Hospital in Long Island to replicate his protocol. I invite you to listen to his latest interview ( drive time last night ) regarding the pending results of the clinical study here:
https://am970theanswer.com/radioshow/578
Search of the podcast titled:
Dr. Zev Zelenko On POTUS Taking Hydroxychloroquine
A charlatan would not even bother to present his protocol for formal clinical trials.
Finally,ask yourself this -— where’s the money for him? There is none. He has no stake in any company providing the drugs, and no personal advantage to his making his protocol public other than to be attacked by skeptics.
This man, by all indicators do not meet the characteristics of a charlatan.
RE: I’ll also mention that leaders in the Hasidic community were not happy with Zelenko, since his inflated claims of Covid-19 in that community were causing other people to shun them.
Can you cite a reliable source for this? Anew news item? Any Hasidic Jew we can quote?
RE: Not only does that raise questions about what kind of testing he is doing, it also contradicts any attempt to show efficacy of a treatment, where the first step is to actually verify that the patient has the condition.
I sent you the link to the radio interview that he did with Kevin McCulloagh, he is doing a study with St. Francis Hospital, the results of which are slowly coming out, that specifically addresses the issue you brought up. Please listen to it.
Also see here:
I have already described some of the indicators of a charlatan. The fact that he has not registered a trial or sought institutional review board approval of any study is a red flag. His lack of publishing of any data or case study is a red flag. His mockery of the clinical trial process—the only means we have of knowing whether a treatment actually works—is a red flag. And so on.
There are real clinical trials going on for chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. These are registered trials, conducted with carefully reviewed protocols by people who are experts in their fields.
It is an unfortunate fact that charlatans pop up to take advantage of people, and they know just what to say to sway a certain group of people. They know how to make people trust them, at the same time casting doubts on the “medical establishment”—in other words, the practice of evidence based medicine. This guy seems no different.
It was in the article that I already linked in reply #24.
Because hydroxychloroquine is a slightly modified form of chloroquine. HCQ is a chloroquine that has had a single hydroxyl (oxygen + hydrogen) group added. Both drugs have similar modes of action. And the use of BOTH is being investigated in actual legitimate clinical trials.
[Because hydroxychloroquine is a slightly modified form of chloroquine. HCQ is a chloroquine that has had a single hydroxyl (oxygen + hydrogen) group added. Both drugs have similar modes of action. And the use of BOTH is being investigated in actual legitimate clinical trials. ]
RE: Yep, this guy is a quack.
If this guy is a quack, then these doctors, all of whom used the same or similar protocols that he used SUCCESSFULLY are quacks as well. Look them up or even call them of you want to get at the truth :
1) Dr. Stephen Smith:
Watch his testimony using hydroxychloroquine here:
Here are his credentials:
https://www.smithcenternj.org/about-our-doctors/
2) Dr. William Grace in New York City, Affiliated with St. Vincents Hospital.
Here is his personal experience:
Here are his credentials:
https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-william-grace-2r7k9
3) Dr. Muhammud Alam in Long Island
See here: https://nypost.com/2020/04/04/long-island-doctor-tries-new-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-patients/
He is an infectious disease specialist affiliated with
Plainview Hospital, he said 81 percent of infected covid patients he treated with hydroxychloroquine and antibiotic azithromycin at three Long Island nursing homes recovered from the contagion.
Here are his credentials:
4) Dr. Anthony Cardillo in Los Angeles
Read his successful cases here:
https://abc7.com/health/doctors-say-caution-needed-in-drug-treatment-for-covid-19/6082485/
See his credentials here:
https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-anthony-cardillo-x34qk
5) Dr. Ivette Lozano of Dallas, Texas. See here cases here:
Here are her credentials:
https://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-ivette-lozano-3fqdp
Just to name a few...
An oh yeah, do you want to call the Doctors who endorse Hydroxychloroquine from the American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS) quacks too?
See here:
https://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/
TITLE: Hydroxychloroquine Has about 90 Percent Chance of Helping COVID-19 Patients
What do these doctors have in common?
They have treated their Coronavirus patients with Hydroxychloroquine with great success.
And less you say that this is just an American thing, Here are some experiences from Physicians abroad:
A global survey found that anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine was the most highly-rated treatment against the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19).
TITLE: Doctors Rate Hydroxychloroquine Most Effective Therapy for Coronavirus Infection
And here are just a few countries who are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine to treat Covid-19:
* Turkey claims success treating COVID-19 with broad use of drug touted by Trump
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-covid-19-treatment-turkey/
* “The drug has proven to be successful in patients who have been treated currently,” says Mario Ruíz, Medical Manager of the Costa Rican Social Security System (CCSS, or Caja).
SEE HERE:
https://ticotimes.net/2020/04/22/costa-rica-using-hydroxychloroquine-for-covid-19-treatment
If Dr. Zelenko is a quick, then thousand of other physicians from everywhere in the world are quacks also. Which means the word has lost its meaning ( just like the word “racism” )
Methinks you use the word “quack” to quickly without thinking it through.
RE: I have already described some of the indicators of a charlatan. The fact that he has not registered a trial or sought institutional review board approval of any study is a red flag.
Again, if you have an open mind you would at least listen to his interview where he actually ORGANIZED clinical trials with St. Francis Hospital in Roslyn,Long Island to replicate his protocol.
RE: It is an unfortunate fact that charlatans pop up to take advantage of people, and they know just what to say to sway a certain group of people.
You are ASSUMING that he is a charlatan and then ignoring the many other doctors who have REPLICATED his successes. You jump into conclusions too quickly.
This action is NOT an indicator of a charlatan but of someone who is willing to have his case actually TESTED.
RE: There are real clinical trials going on for chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine. These are registered trials, conducted with carefully reviewed protocols by people who are experts in their fields.
Sure, and Dr. Zelenko never objected to them. But I find nothing wrong with him actually using the drugs on his patients and REPORTING on the results of his treatment. You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you say it means.
RE: It was in the article that I already linked in reply #24.
I read the article.
It says:
Zelenko said in one of two videos he posted on Tuesday that he stopped testing his patients for coronavirus after “the first few hundred tests came back with 65% positive results.”
and then it says that Orange County had 539 confirmed coronavirus cases as of Tuesday. How many of those patients are from Kiryas Joel is unknown because county officials say federal privacy rules bar them from disclosing patients’ hometowns, even though other counties have done so.
Dr. Zelenko never said that his patients were SOLELY from Kiryas Joel. He said that he tested his patients MANY of whom are from Kiryas Joel. MANY does not mean ALL.
And note the first paragraph:
” Village leaders and community groups issued a joint statement on Tuesday rebuking a local doctor’s predictions about the spread of the coronavirus “
Zelenko’s “mistake” if you can call it that is his prediction that because the village is a close knit community, nearly 60% could be infected. This of course will concern the Village leaders because it might spread negative impressions about their community.
But NOTE — This has NOTHING to do with the efficacy of his protocol. Whether it works for Covid-19 or not is a DIFFERENT issue.
His protocol with ZINC has been studied separately and has been USED by doctors separately as well and indicators tell us that IT WORKS.
A preliminary study done by New York’s Grossman School of Medicine reports on the use of HCQ+AZT+Zinc (Zelenko’s protocol ) versus HCQ+AZT alone in four New York Hospitals has issued its report. Here’s the key finding of the abstract.
SEE HERE: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.02.20080036v1
____________________________
Zinc sulfate increased the frequency of patients being discharged home, and decreased the need for ventilation, admission to the ICU, and mortality or transfer to hospice for patients who were never admitted to the ICU. After adjusting for the time at which zinc sulfate was added to our protocol, an increased frequency of being discharged home (OR 1.53, 95% CI 1.12-2.09) reduction in mortality or transfer to hospice remained significant (OR 0.449, 95% CI 0.271-0.744).
Conclusion: This study provides the first in vivo evidence that zinc sulfate in combination with hydroxychloroquine may play a role in therapeutic management for COVID-19.
____________________________
It says: “main finding of this study is that after adjusting for the timing of zinc therapy, we found that the addition of zinc sulfate to hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin was found to associate with a decrease in mortality or transition to hospice among patients who did not require ICU level of care, but this association was not significant in patients who were treated in the ICU.”
NOTE: THIS CONCLUSION IS PRECISELY WHAT DR. ZELENKO HAS BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG — TREAT COVID-19 EARLY TO PREVENT HOSPITALIZATION.
Why do we need HCQ+AZT+Zinc as recommended by Zelenko?
According to the NYU Grossman School of Medicine:
It may cut ICU visits by 40%
It may halve the need for ventilation.
And it may cut the death rate by almost 50%.
These data are INDEPENDENT of what the lay people of Kyrias Joel feel. They stand on their own and they add support to the work of Dr. Zelenko.
RE: It is an unfortunate fact that charlatans pop up to take advantage of people, and they know just what to say to sway a certain group of people.
Let’s look at examples of classic charlatans -— the old Travelling Medicine Show where peddlers sell their “medical cures” for various ailments to gullible people for money.
The predecessor to the traveling American medicine man was the European mountebank, well known throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance for selling their medicinal wares at fairs, street corners, in market squares or wherever they could gather a crow of onlookers.
I think you have that in mind when you think of Dr. Zelenko.
Have you asked yourself if they are similar or are there HUGE differences? Here are the difference — refute them if you will:
1) The medicine men DO NOT tell us the formula behind their medicine. They simply ask you to trust that it works based on their stories.
Dr. Zelenko : 1) REFERS to scientific studies done using the SAME drugs that he is using; 2) PUBLISHES his protocol and patient profile for all to see so that they can be replicated.
2) The medicine men sell their wares for money. I am waiting for you show me how Dr. Zelenko is enriching himself by pushing a drug combo that is GENERIC, without a single monopolizing company, and costs less than $30.00
3) The medicine men usually tell others that this is a special ingredient that was discovered and does not invite doctors or scientists to test their miracle cure.
Dr. Zelenko INVITES other people to replicate his work, ORGANIZES a KNOWN catholic hospital with nearly a hundred year history to test his protocol and more importantly has MANY LICENSED DOCTORS who actually REPLICATED his success ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES *AND* the world.
It is an unfortunate fact that people like you IGNORE the huge difference, ignore the evidence, ignore the successful cases presented in order to insist that one must follow ONLY YOUR SPECIFICALLY APPROVED METHOD of inquiry in order to be accepted as efficacious.
If that is the case,then I have to say that even the drug the FDA approves of — the potentially more expensive Remdesivir, has less scientific and clinical evidence backing it than Hydroxychloroquine ( and I am not even against the use of Remdesivir ).
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I think you have that in mind when you think of Dr. Zelenko.
Actually, I am basing my assessment of him on modern day charlatans. Many of them have MD degrees, which means that they have the knowledge to speak of the subject they are scamming with a high level of expertise. But, rather than speak matter-of-factly to the science, they go off on conspiracies--about big pharma and about the medical establishment, while claiming that they have THE cure to whatever disease the patient is suffering. They effect a high level of empathy (which I do not think they feel), so as to attract a particular type of person.
Charlatans are extremely common in the field of cancer, but can pop up in any discipline of medicine. One particularly notorious charlatan routinely advertises his quackery in airplane magazines, and even links to a paper that he (somehow) got published as proof that he has THE cure to cancer that somehow thousands of medical researchers and physicians have missed.
1) The medicine men DO NOT tell us the formula behind their medicine. They simply ask you to trust that it works based on their stories.
Actually, they do tell about their medicine. They publish everything about their craft, from data on drug efficacy to the type of suture that causes the least scarring, in the medical journals which are available to everyone. (Some are behind paywalls but you can still read the abstracts.)
So one thing I look for immediately when someone claims to have a miracle cure is the medical literature. Is there evidence that the claimed cure actually works? Does the person making the claims have a solid research background? Or is it something that anyone could have heard about, and the charlatan picked up on it and started touting it. I think that is the case with Zelenko. As far as I can tell, he was an ordinary practicing family medicine doctor who may simply have gotten in over his head on this one, and has fallen into the charlatan mindset as a result.
RE: But, rather than speak matter-of-factly to the science, they go off on conspiracies—about big pharma and about the medical establishment, while claiming that they have THE cure to whatever disease the patient is suffering.
OK, I’ve asked you this several times — DID YOU LISTEN TO HIS INTERVIEWS? In his lengthy interview with Mayor Rudy Giuliani in his podcast, Zelenko went to great lengths to explain how Hydroxychloroquine acts as an ionophore for Zinc to work to prevent the replication of the virus on the lungs.
And this isn’t even his original discovery, Italian journals have published the same science that he presented for the lay person to understand. This is the same explanation made by Italian researcher, Annalisa Chiusolo :
also here:
https://internetprotocol.co/hype-news/2020/04/30/covid19-explanation-hcq-works/
Secondly, Zelenko NEVER said he had the cure — as in it will ALWAYS work. He only based his report on his observation -— that his patients, given the cocktail EARLY in the course of the disease, avoided hospitalization. However, he did clarify that SOME still went to the hospital anyway ( less than 5 by his count ).
That charlatans are very common does not mean that THIS PARTICULAR person is a charlatan. Not when his work has been REPLICATED by many other doctors here in the USA and around the world. I would even say that he is REPLICATING what other doctors did,since he never claimed that his work was his own discovery. So nope, I disagree,this is not the work of a charlatan. It does not meet the profile.
RE: anyone could have heard about, and the charlatan picked up on it and started touting it. I think that is the case with Zelenko. As far as I can tell, he was an ordinary practicing family medicine doctor who may simply have gotten in over his head on this one, and has fallen into the charlatan mindset as a result.
I think your assessment about him is totally wrong. Based on the work of other doctors, based on the many anecdotal evidences out there,based on the already existing studies ( some of which I posted to you ), based on his own statements that he is only replicating what others have already been doing successfully, the man SINCERELY believes that this cocktail works BASED ON OBSERVATION and is simply sharing his observations to HELP OTHERS.
I don’t see him making money out of this, and I see OPPOSITION, ATTACKS ( like yours ) from many sources, many from the media. He does not need the aggravation, but he still carries on valiantly. He should be THANKED for his efforts, not unfairly attacked.
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