Posted on 07/29/2022 9:03:25 AM PDT by UMCRevMom@aol.com
At least forty Ukrainian prisoners of war have been killed in a Russian detention camp.
Ukraine said Putin's men carried out 'targeted artillery shelling' to both accuse Ukraine of war crimes and hide any evidence of torture and mass executions in the prison.
A total of 193 people were held in the jail at the time of the strike, Pushilin said in comments broadcast on Russian state television.
Ukrainian authorities in the Donetsk region also said that Russia has pressed on with the shelling of civilian targets in Ukrainian-held areas.
Scores of Ukrainian soldiers were taken to prisons in Russian-controlled areas such as the Donetsk region, a breakaway area in eastern Ukraine run by Russian-backed separatist authorities.
Separately Ukraine said at least five people had been killed and seven wounded in a Russian missile strike on the southeastern city Mykolaiv, as Russia fired across frontlines in eastern and southern Ukraine.
Russia, denies targeting civilians, did not immediately commentn and Reuters could not verify the battlefield reports.
An intelligence update from Britain said Russia has ordered mercenaries to hold sections of the frontline in Ukraine - a sign it is running short of combat infantry as Kyiv steps up a counter-offensive in the south.
Greater reliance on fighters from the Russian private military company Wagner Group for frontline duties rather than their usual work in special operations would be another sign that Russia's military is under stress six months into its war in Ukraine.
'This is a significant change from the previous employment of the group since 2015, when it typically undertook missions distinct from overt, large-scale regular Russian military activity,' the ministry said.
Officials in Kyiv on Russian forces to the south where British defense officials believe Russia's 49th Army, stationed on the west bank of Dnipro River, is vulnerable.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Pretty easy to prove either way.
Who to believe, who to believe . . .
I believe Russia.
The Ukraine and the SOROS crowd have been caught lying too many times.
Think Malady(Krauts) and Katyn.
I agree 100%
Question.
How is that statement even possible when no matter what the incident alleged against Russia is, they have at least three different stories of how it went down?
Surely Russia cannot be doing anything other than lying two different ways out of three?
Take the rocket attack on Odessa as an example. Russia
1. Military reported they did it
2. State officials went on social media, celebrating it
3. Military then contradicted their own story
4. Media issued denial and said it hadn’t been struck at all
5. New narrative: Russia did it, but had hit a Western arms store
6. Second new narrative: they hit a Ukrainian naval vessel
7. Diplomats denied Russian origin (when talking to Turkey)
8. New story emerged: maybe the Ukes did it?
And that’s not even every permutation of the story coming out of Russia.
Come on. At least half of those have to be lies. They can’t possibly be so incompetent as to not have a clue who launched what, and where at, and why.
That routine’s as old as the hills. They did almost the same thing over MH17. So much so that the same newsreader on the same day as announcing that Russia shot it down, went on air in the exact same clothes and make-up saying that the Ukes did it.
Maybe outright lies aren’t so bad if you make it so bloody obvious that you’re lying that people cannot take you seriously...
Sorry, still don’t trust Zelensky, Biden, SOROS, Clinton, the Democrats, the Marxist MSM, EU politicians, Romney, etc.
They are congenital liars and they’ve been lying all along about this conflict.
And while I don’t believe Russia has clean hands in this conflict, their tract record is still better in terms of honesty, than the other side.
Seek help.
So they’re really going with the theory that Russia shelled a prison on DPR territory to kill Azov militants whom they could have just as easily publicly hanged to the thunderous applause of virtually everyone in Russia and part of Ukraine.
Even though Ukraine hasn’t exactly shied away from launching artillery strikes against DPR territory in recent weeks.
okay sure I guess
Daily Mail!
Breakfast of ZEEPERS!
Olenivka is just a few kilometers east of Donetsk front line. Putting aside whether the DPR has been taunting the Ukrops into a rescue operation where they will be blown to pieces, this location is open to satellite and drone recon. It is also going to be well known to the locals who will be blabby about where the Azovs are being held. There is only one pool to swim in here. Yes, I am connecting dots to some degree, but that this location was a detention center was obvious to the Ukrops borders on not debatable. The evidence is as well obvious (collected fragments) that HIMARS was the means of attack is indisputale. There is only one conclusion - US intel (HIMARS targeting info) was used to perpetrate a war crime. The only question that may be debatable is whether the US had knowledge its information was going to be used to commit a war crime. Either way, it’s a world of excrament
Yet you accept the exact opposite in Western Media, Government and Citizenry.
False news stories are "Unintended Mistakes", "accidental misquotes", "Unfortunate Misunderstandings", "Out of the Loop, "Not Privy to Secret Information", or Kept In The Dark For Security Reasons".
You accept White House press secretaries explanations of what Biden meant immediately after him saying the opposite on air.
You accept any meaning whatsoever assigned to Kamala Harris' word salad jumble.
You accept any excuse the Western Sources give for inaccuracy or lies, but Russians must be perfect every time they speak.
Even when translated by Yahoo.
“So they’re really going with the theory that Russia shelled a prison on DPR territory to kill Azov militants whom they could have just as easily publicly hanged to the thunderous applause of virtually everyone in Russia and part of Ukraine.”
See, this is what is known as “confirmation bias” - when people avoid the hardship of looking for a range of plausible scenarios, because the first one that gets thrown at them looks good enough - so they then only look at the evidence for the theory they’ve decided to go with.
The “Ukes did it” narrative has a few holes in it. So does the “Russia did it” narrative.
So, what else do we know? Objective facts, not propaganda.
Here’s a sample.
1. Russia has THIS YEAR officially renewed its “no death penalty” policy - during the war. So the “hang ‘em” idea is for the birds. Russia is far more likely to throw them in a Siberian gulag than give them a fair public trial and then send them to the gallows for a Sharia style public execution.
2. The DPR has capital punishment. It imposed that purely so it could execute alleged Azov fighters after conducting closed room tribunals. It doesn’t want to make a show of these executions, and it doesn’t want a long term problem of keeping them in prison either.
3. There’s another “even though” that you might not have thought of... The DPR has just done a prisoner swap with Ukraine, giving a whole bunch of Azov fighters their freedom. And Russia certainly doesn’t want to do that after making a huge song and dance about how it wants to hold tribunals but doesn’t want to reinstate the death penalty...
So, if you put (2) and (3) together you get an interesting equation: Russia would rather these prisoners weren’t where they were, and if it were up to the DPR they’d either be executed or swapped or shipped into Russia - anything that can offload the problem.
“Even though Ukraine hasn’t exactly shied away from launching artillery strikes against DPR territory in recent weeks.”
I don’t think anyone’s saying that a Uke strike on the prison is implausible. The question is, how much more plausible is it than the alternative?
One way to avoid any problems related to negotiations of a prisoner swap is, if the prisoners you could swap are definitely all dead and you can say “it wasn’t our fault”.
So yes, the Ukes could’ve done it, but just like I don’t think Russia’s “friendly fire” shooting down of its own chopper was intended to benefit Ukraine, I can’t see why Ukraine would deliberately do something to benefit Russia.
And one has to wonder, if Russia didn’t want to risk those guys getting swapped, how would Russia kill them all very quickly and maintain plausible deniability...?
I imagine it’s not difficult to give some of the personnel an excuse to be away from the prisoner accommodation just before bombing the crap out of it.
“Interesting, you claim that confusion and contradiction in news stories and quotes from Russia prove that Russians are lying”
How else would you describe it when Russia says “1+1=2” one minute, “1+1=3” the next, and “1+1=10” the next day and they do it with almost every bloody story?
Whether you think they’re reporting honestly or not, the plain fact is they’re broadcasting the wrong narrative more often than they’re broadcasting the right one. Either it’s deliberate, or they’re totally incompetent.
“Yet you accept the exact opposite in Western Media, Government and Citizenry.”
Actually, no. If you check, you’ll see that where the West accuses Russia of doing something, I look at alternative explanations and narratives too. I only throw a narrative in the bin if it has far more holes in it than the others.
Example: the genocide of Donbass narrative. I supported it until 2020 when the DPR - not Kyiv - said it had come to an end. Ukraine says there’s been no Azov-nazi-led genocide since 2019. SO DID THE DPR.
Not only that - the DPR, 2 years in a row, filed an annual report to the Kremlin CONFIRMING what the Ukrainians were saying. And, they handed their evidence to the United Nations. The UN then looked at the Uke anti-DPR numbers, and the DPR’s anti-Ukraine numbers, and bugger me if they didn’t almost match exactly.
Either Russia or the DPR, in February, is lying - not accidentally, but deliberately. The genocide was either still ongoing for two years and DPR lied repeatedly by saying it had ended, or it had ended and Putin knowingly lied in February when he said it was ongoing. Or, maybe they’d both been lying to each other and to the world for two years.
There is no other rational conclusion to draw where BOTH parties were telling the truth on genocide. They’re damned by their own statements.
“You accept White House press secretaries explanations of what Biden meant immediately after him saying the opposite on air.”
Bullcrap. I don’t listen to ANYTHING coming out of the White House. I get my information through a range of sources - Telegram, Russian state television, Ukrainian social media, and news sources from China, India, the Middle East, eastern Europe, Western Europe and the UK. Sometimes American press too, but not often because these days they’re confirmation-bias-riddled aggregators of information from other sources rather than doing proper journalism.
What’s that mantra? Trust, but verify.
I do that.
All I see from the Putinards here is,
1. Trust any old bullshit coming out of the Kremlin, no matter how utterly implausible it is - AND treat anything repeating that bullshit (no matter who it is - random unqualified bloke on social media will do) as confirming it when all it’s doing is repeating it.
2. Don’t trust anything about the war that comes out of anywhere else. Even if an incident is filmed from 20 different angles on 20 different smart phones, verified by independent journalists, backed up with satellite images, and investigated by NGOs, it’s STILL bullshit because, er, PUTIN GOOD SOROS BAD SO IT MUST BE WRONG.
I find the US non-reaction thus far as the most convincing supporting evidence that this was indeed a Ukrainian attack, in my honest opinion, Mr. Zelenskyytard. When has the US not jumped at an opportunity to accuse Russia of war crimes? I know, you know, and they know for certain they have no leg to stand on......hence, no condemnation to the sort. Ironic, huh?
There are three entirely plausible possibilities: that the DPR killed the prisoners, that the Ukrainians did it, and the Russians did it.
Any which way you cut it, the outcome suits all parties.
It suits the DPR which has the death penalty for POWs - both Russian and Ukrainian laws do not allow it.
It suits the Russians, as it takes Azov fighters off the table permanently but keeps their hands clean.
And finally it suits Kyiv, which values Azov only as long as Azov is fighting the Russians. Z doesn’t want an army of hardened nazis still standing once the war ends.
So ultimately the Americans don’t want to point fingers too much - this one’s a real mess. But if they think it can be pinned on Putin, that’s a different matter.
Anyway, this seems far more convincing than the Russian story so far.
https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1553346547739410432
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.