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To: HairOfTheDog; Overtaxed; GretchenEE
Okay, here's an example of what's going on over at B&N-
the subject: Religion in LotR

Georgia
It seems to me that by creating a world in which religion is unnecessary because the spirituality of the people is a natural part of life (as seen in the Elves), Tolkien was making a very powerful point. All of the races have a definitive way of living and of keeping their culture alive. You can see in the relationship of Frodo and Sam, for example, that Hobbits have friendships built on spiritual foundations and not social ones, as socially Sam is not compatible with Frodo.

Shirley
I would agree with that Amy. Don't think he wrote for the purposes of evangalizing anyone. At the same time, I do believe that the Christian themes found in his works are there as natural expressions of his world view.

Agate
The "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta" are short stories that can be found at the beginning of the Silmarillion. The first is Arda's (the world that includes Middle Earth) creation myth and the second is basically a roster of its gods and goddesses, collectively called the Valar. But you're right in that Tolkien never develops any particular moral or ritual framework to which the people's of Middle Earth adhere. As an atheist, I personally don't find it to be problematic.
In fact, I consider the lack of overt religiosity to be one of LotR's strengths.
One can of course argue that there are several Christian themes underlying the books, and that is true to some extent, but I also think some people try a bit too hard to find connections.

Cathy
Hi Norman, I agree with you that the "lack of overt religiosity [is]one of LotR's strengths." I can't read CS Lewis anymore, though I read Narnia to my kids. But Lewis uses symbolism with a sledgehammer. Tolkien is much more open to spirituality without defining exactly what the "correct" form of it is (as I think Lewis does).

Cindy
Religion takes many forms.

My background is in the metaphysical, an universal force surrounding all things. This force has many names, including the word "love". The love between Frodo and Sam, is a very spiritual kind of love, representing "The Golden Rule". "Love one another as I had loved you."

It is interesting that evil "appears" to have overcome good, until it looks like all is lost. Only then, does the characters of the "fellowship" look within themselves, and find the courage that was there all the time to overturn the evil. The "good" within each of us prevails.

This is another concept of spiritual law. The ability of each of us to look within to find our "good". As Jesus stated, "You shall do these things and greater if you have the faith of a mustard seed." I believe Jesus was telling us to look within to find our courage, as was Tolkien.

My Response

I think you are very wrong- here's excerpts from his own letters, and by his authorized biographer.

"The Lord of the Rings," he wrote in a letter to a friend, "is of course a fundamentally religious and Christian work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." Humphrey Carpenter, author of Tolkien's authorized biography, takes this claim seriously. Tolkien's writings, he says, are "the work of a profoundly religious man." According to Carpenter, God is essential to everything that happens in The Lord of the Rings. Without Him, Middle-earth couldn't exist. But be forewarned: Evidences of God's presence are not as obvious in Tolkien's work as in Lewis' more allegorical style of writing. They are there, however - firmly embedded in the tales he insisted on calling "inventions about Truth." In fact, if you know what to look for, you may find them popping up everywhere.

As a spirit-filled Christian, I see Tolkien's spirituality everywhere Not the ritualized 'go-to-church' form, but the born in the spirit- touching the supernatural and having a communion and fellowship with God- type of faith.

In his work, you have the work of the Holy Spirit (Gandalf) ; of guardian, messenger, consoling angels (elves) ; death/redemption, the struggle and challenges of holding to that which is true; you have the evidences of that "hearing (internal) ear", healing and deliverance, words of knowledge and faith. Infact, all the gifts of the spirit.

You also have the other side of the supernatural spectrum- the fallen wizards - just as Lucifer fell, and fallen angels- the corrupted elves known as Orcs (goblins, wargs,etc) all fallen from their first estate. You also have the demon-oppressed and demon-possessed such as Gollum, the nine kings.

You have all of the characters challenges to overcome temptations, and discovering their inner conditions; these struggles are common to all, and have varying degrees of success.

You also see clearly that "To whom much is given much is required."

I can't imagine that anyone well versed in scripture could help but see the "shadows (inventions) of truth"

It seems to me that the faith-life in Tolkien was very strong, and the existence of an Almighty, supernatural God was a given. What he depicted was the struggle of Good vs Evil, the personal challenge to resist the Devil, and His ability to work all things for good in the lives of those that love Him.

Well, what do ya'll make of that?

42 posted on 09/14/2002 5:01:28 AM PDT by LinnieBeth
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To: LinnieBeth
I think it sounds like an interesting conversation in the class Linnie....

If I were in the class, I would probably post somewhere between on the issue of religion. People who want to see symbolism do, but understanding Christian symbols is not necessary to understanding and enjoying the story either. The reader can pull the lessons and stick them in to their own life, and their own creed.

As for the Green Dragon stuff, let's see if the other chime in today. I am sure sorry you thought it was you! - People are just busy. and it takes a lot of time and emotional energy to stay in it for the whole book. The number of posters in FoTR dropped off too, toward the end.
43 posted on 09/14/2002 5:25:18 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: LinnieBeth
And I was just about ready to go wading amongst the clueless this morning! I guess we're spoiled here at FR. I don't know what to say about these people....shallow in their understanding of religion.

The atheist certainly has no clue:

but I also think some people try a bit too hard to find connections.

If you know anything about Scripture or Christianity those "connections" hit you over the head and don't need to be found by trying too hard.

44 posted on 09/14/2002 5:28:22 AM PDT by Overtaxed
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