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help me talk to my liberal sister (VANITY)
me

Posted on 04/06/2003 10:39:32 AM PDT by votelife

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To: *bang_list
bump.
21 posted on 04/06/2003 11:03:30 AM PDT by Dec31,1999
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To: Scoop
thanks everyone for the links. I knew that Moore and talking to liberal family members are things that Freepers can relate to.
22 posted on 04/06/2003 11:05:39 AM PDT by votelife (FREE MIGUEL ESTRADA!)
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To: elbucko
strong points!
23 posted on 04/06/2003 11:31:59 AM PDT by votelife (FREE MIGUEL ESTRADA!)
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To: elbucko
I used your line in my letter to her, thanks.
24 posted on 04/06/2003 12:10:53 PM PDT by votelife (FREE MIGUEL ESTRADA!)
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To: HighWheeler
I like your list!
25 posted on 04/06/2003 12:12:37 PM PDT by votelife (FREE MIGUEL ESTRADA!)
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To: votelife
my sister is only 24. She's the only one in our nuclear family who's a liberal. I do have hope for her, but right now, if she's getting her's news from Michael Moore, well, that's tough!

Don't give up on her....she will come around. Good to know that she is still young.

26 posted on 04/06/2003 1:20:40 PM PDT by Lauratealeaf (God be with our troops and President Bush)
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To: votelife
Tell your sister she is lucky to be able to talk with you. If she is so immature or gullible to believe what she hears, don't try to argue the point, just let her know that you love her and will love her when her doubts are proven wrong. JMVHO...
27 posted on 04/06/2003 2:24:10 PM PDT by callthemlikeyouseethem
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To: votelife
She admitted that Moore "did distort the sequence of events a bit"

You did better than me, I got a "he still said those things."
28 posted on 04/06/2003 4:28:33 PM PDT by Djarum
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To: votelife
I especially need rebutall stuff on Iraq and Rumsfeld.

I have a couple of angles to try. First let me identify that intellectual problems with Moore's perspectives. Our war against Saddam in Iraq relates to that.

On the pacifist, internationalist left there is no acceptance of the use of force and killing. A corollary is an unwillingness to sacrifice one's own life for patriotic causes. Some pacifists can give their lives for humanity, so the lines remain unclear.

More toward the center of the internationalist left and at the center of the American Democratic party, there is less of a refusal to use force but a continued sense that it should be avoided even when to do so could lead to loss of innocent life, reduced geopolitical stature for America (or substitute Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Israel, etc...).

On a personal level, the second amendment doesn't make sense to these people because force isn't in their vocabulary.

Now it's time to identify some of the most important reasons why so many people have fallen into the trap of believing America (and capitalist democracies world wide) are both wrong in aggressively expanding their influence and in allowing citizens to be armed. Moore argues against both.

Despite the terrible historic facts that formed the American nation, the revolutions, the civil war, the wars in Europe and the Pacific, the Korean war, and the Viet Nam war, our citizens are so well protected that many of them have come to believe that peace is a permanent fixture in their lives.

The nuclear umbrella has given us peace at home. Our fighting forces have kept communism at bay. This has gone on for generations, not counting WWII, the gravity of which was not lost on any American after Pearl Harbor. (But it's interesting to note that many Americans didn't think we should fight in WWII until then!)

Despite our frontier tradition, despite our battles here and overseas in which we've lost hundreds of thousands of soldiers, contemporary Americans have bought into the idea that a new era is upon us, one in which all countries and all peoples should join hands in peace.

This is a beautiful idea, but it isn't borne out in historic fact. On the other hand, history shows that American might has brought freedom to numerous lands. And our might has nothing to do with colonialism. Japan and Germany are our strongest economic competitors now. We have independent governments in South America, and even tolerate Cuba, Venezuela, for example. Eastern Europe is now free. Israel is free. Taiwan is free. The list goes on and on.

So what should she understand about anti-Americanism abroad? I don't claim to fully understand this. But I would say that intellectuals have been questioning American government for more than a century. Marxism on college campuses is rampant. Revisionist history is rampant. The printing pressess, radio, TV, and film media have had non-stop messages of mistrust and envy toward American government. But she should ask herself what would the world be like if we had not fought in WW1. How would it be if we hadn't fought in WW2, for example, if we had just left the Pacific to Japan. How would it be if we hadn't defended South Korea? And she should even try to imagine how much more powerful the Soviet Union would be if we hadn't fought against its influences in Viet Nam. Morever, we defended Afghanistan by sending the Mujahadeen weapons and training, further sapping the Soviet Union of its strength. And finally, we've supported a free Israel, after the suffering of the Jews during WW2. It's the least we could do, and every American should know that many of our soldiers who fought in WW2 knew about Germany's Final SOlution, and when they matured, wanted to help the Israelis find a place in the sun and influenced our government after coming home from the war to do just that.

Despite the propaganda, the wide-spread belief in Europe and even in America that mild communism and heavy socialism are beneficial to human beings, can your sister truly imagine a world in which America hadn't resisted stalinist and maoist communism? She should read at least one Solzhenitzyn book before she holds forth against America's stalwart fight against communism in the cold war. I highly recommend his First Circle. In this book, a Russian scientist is cast into the Gulag. But he is recruited to work on spying devices for the Russian Secret Police. Solzhenitzyn's books are a gruesome catalog of injustice, but besides that, First Circle touches on the very center of oppression and oppressive regimes: they need technology.

I won't take much time to address second amendment issues for your sister, but she should be given the chance to ask herself why America is the oldest surviving democratic government on the earth. She should ask herself how we pushed across the plains and secured a land for ourselves, and why we can't accept that urbanization translates into disarming of civilians. I know others have done this much more justice than I have, but self defense is a basic human right. Moreover, a well-armed public is a good deterrent against external attack. And many of our founding fathers insisted that knowledge of a well-armed public helps to keep its politicians honest. Moore may not even care about the second amendment. He may not even be afraid of accidental or crime-related gun death for himself. But he is making a mint on America's fears. Patriots find his "deep" searches for the origins of Columbine's tragedy to be both undisciplined and exploitative. It is politically incorrect to look toward loss of morals and weakened social responsibility in this tragedy. But if one would dare to look there, we might find things Moore wouldn't want to admit as root causes.

The question of Iraq is more difficult for your sister if she holds the above viewpoints. There are three important issues she should at least consider, however.

  1. Saddam's atrocities are well-documented and most, even among Arabic-speaking nations, agree that he went too far in enforcing his rule. It's humanitarian to consider removing him on that basis alone.
  2. Saddam had been threatening our allies in the area, including Israel, for years. His WMD ambitions made this threat a serious one which we had to address.
  3. Saddam had begun to threated America. The debate rages on about his involvement in terrorism, but his words revealed his ambitions. After 9/11, Americans even more strongly believe it is their right to preempt threats. I hope your sister can accept that.
Your sister should ask herself whom she should believe: Saddam, France, Russia, or Germany? Her president, elected by the Electoral College, is telling her that removing Saddam is the right choice now. Most patriots agree. There are good reasons to take action against Iraq.

Finally, your sister herself enjoys the fruits of American military might. She's living abroad in western countries, speaking her mind at any moment she desires, and holding forth strongly anti-patriotic points of view. She should know that those rights were purchased with the blood of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers who willingly gave their lives for a purpose they felt was higher than their own existence.

Your sister is alive, well, and can hold her own contrary opinions because of the force for liberty maintained by American patriots. Moreover, we all hope that someday she will change her mind and join us. We can wait. Young people who question America and its government are encouraged to do so. It is often those who question it the most who learn to love it best. I know from experience!

29 posted on 04/06/2003 4:35:55 PM PDT by risk
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To: elbucko
One cannot "distort facts" and arrive at an "overall correct theme". The thought is contradictory and is intellectually dishonest.

I agree totally, once someone distorts something, credibility is suspect for anything else in a "story".
30 posted on 04/06/2003 4:40:10 PM PDT by Teetop (democrats....... socialist.........whats the difference?)
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To: votelife
Send her a sympathy card on the loss of her mind.
31 posted on 04/06/2003 5:42:53 PM PDT by OldFriend (without the brave, there would be no land of the free)
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