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Second Hand Smoke Scam
Fox News ^ | October 17, 2003 | Steven Milloy

Posted on 10/17/2003 9:51:26 AM PDT by CSM

Edited on 04/22/2004 12:37:24 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

I could only laugh last April when I first heard about a study claiming that a smoking ban in Helena, Mont., cut the city

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: falsification; mediafraud; medialies; newyorktimes; nyt; nytschadenfreude; pufflist; schadenfreude; secondhandsmoke; smoking; thenewyorktimes
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To: Old Professer
And now the nanny-class has a new cause - suburbsn sprawl; to alleviate it they are conducting massive surveys with the anticipated result being a change in local zoning laws that will force people back into high-density housing to protect the new commons they hope to create from the then worthless (unbuildable) land.

The greatest danger to freedom is overcrowding.

If America's population continues to grow, there will come a time when the single-family home will be discouraged by being taxed out of existence, or failing that, siezed under eminent domain so as to free the land for more efficent use by building high-rises on it.

What's left of the wilderness will be turned into great outdoor museums, which people will wait on line for months to visit--and when visiting, will be disallowed from venturing from wilderness paths.

Needless to say, those people will not be able to pick flowers or berries without a picking permit and bag limit (as today we have hunting and fishing permits--something our forebears would have thought a crazy idea, too), and no cutting of firewood.

In fact, no campfires or fireplaces--too many people whose activities already spew too much pollutants for "necessary" activities, to allow a few people the "luxurious waste" of a wood fire for purely aesthetic reasons.

81 posted on 10/17/2003 11:32:28 AM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: Age of Reason
The real problem here is this: The denser the population, the more a person's habits and activities will irritate others, and the more those others will turn to big government as a means to control you.

At its most dense, population in the developed countries is less dense and more private than it was a hundred years ago.
82 posted on 10/17/2003 11:35:05 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: r9etb
As a matter of fact, I do; as a matter of reason it is unimportant. You apparently suffer from asthma, does it bias your reason?

The problem with etiologially associating smoking tobacco with death is that it can't be simply demonstrated that a dose-effect relationship can be measured and all such associations must be studied at great length and subjected to rigorous control methodologies to arrive at a statistically significant cause-effect relationship.

Long-term studies clearly show that career-smoking is harmful to one's health but so are many other normal and daily acivities such as driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic or crossing a busy street.

What hasn't been shown is a clear and present danger to being exposed to ETS in ordinary living arrangements.

As I said, I am opposed to general bans on smoking by government because it amounts to another abridgement of free association among groups. Current bans prohibit a gathering of all-smoking patrons in any place where one or more of the participants is an employee; only an idiot would think that this would lead to an improvement of these people's health - they will continue to smoke even if elsewhere, singly or in casual groups, and the general welfare neither gains nor loses.

It is the overarching reach of the big hand of government to which I object.

83 posted on 10/17/2003 11:46:05 AM PDT by Old Professer
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To: Age of Reason
That would be a great argument if the population was actually growing; in America (the U.S.A.), the native population is reproducing at a negative rate; it is only immigration that swells our ranks.
84 posted on 10/17/2003 11:49:06 AM PDT by Old Professer
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To: r9etb
Milloy's article appears to go beyond this one flawed study

Could you point out the "flaws," please?

85 posted on 10/17/2003 12:20:01 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: Old Professer
As a matter of fact, I do; as a matter of reason it is unimportant. You apparently suffer from asthma, does it bias your reason?

I do suffer from asthma, and cigarette smoke does aggravate it. The transition from smoking-allowed to smoke-free was wonderful for me.

But that's not why I asked the question. Over the years I've found that people who argue as you do -- demanding "direct evidence," and all that -- tend to be smokers. I figured, based on your responses, that you must be a smoker, and I was correct.

Now, we need not know the exact cause of death to know that smoking has a very significant effect on life expectancy. The difference between smokers and non-smokers is several years (see, e.g., here, search for "smoke").

As for ETS, it's been shown to aggravate existing conditions in children, such as asthma, and some studies like this one claim to have found that ETS is a significant factor in the development of asthma.

The point, again, is that significant exposure to ETS does have negative effects on some people, even if the exact mechanism is not specifically known.

86 posted on 10/17/2003 12:20:20 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: UseYourHead
However, I would also be inclined to give smokers a little leeway if they would STOP FLICKING THEIR BUTTS ON THE GROUND!!!

Good point- and it goes to the larger issue that smokers have been pretty bad at fighting the pr battle on this whole thing.

87 posted on 10/17/2003 12:20:21 PM PDT by Modernman ("In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women."-Homer)
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To: Madame Dufarge
Could you point out the "flaws," please?

You apparently misunderstand: the "flawed study" is the same one Milloy is writing about.

88 posted on 10/17/2003 12:21:18 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Modernman
Good point- and it goes to the larger issue that smokers have been pretty bad at fighting the pr battle on this whole thing.

Well, you've got to admit they have an uphill battle: smoking is smelly; the smoke permeates clothes, hair, furniture, and carpets; you get to listen to "smoker's cough;" and -- for women especially -- you often get to enjoy the the beauties of "smoker's face." Smoking seems to offer very few redeeming features.

89 posted on 10/17/2003 12:24:58 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Age of Reason
The real problem here is this: The denser the population, the more a person's habits and activities will irritate others, and the more those others will turn to big government as a means to control you.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Smoking bans seem to have started in bigger, densely-populated cities. I think when you stick more people together, you need more rules, and some of these rules are going to be pretty burdensome.

People being what they are, I don't see any other solution, in a lot of cases.

90 posted on 10/17/2003 12:26:24 PM PDT by Modernman ("In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women."-Homer)
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To: Age of Reason
The greatest danger to freedom is overcrowding

We're not really overcrowded in this country- large swathes of this nation are essentially untamed wildernes. Hell, Southern New Jersey is basically woddland with a few towns here and there. I won't even talk about how empty the West is.

Overcrowding occurs becuase certain places are a magnet for Americans- Manhattan, Los Angeles, Atlanta, Miami etc. etc. Those places become crowded not because there isn't enough space in this country, but because people voluntarily move there.

I realize I'm going seriously off-topic.

91 posted on 10/17/2003 12:33:14 PM PDT by Modernman ("In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women."-Homer)
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To: r9etb
Well, you've got to admit they have an uphill battle: smoking is smelly; the smoke permeates clothes, hair, furniture, and carpets

Societally-approved behavior can change over time. Used to be, being a functional alcoholic was no big deal, for example. Drinking and driving used to be no big deal. Over time, society has decided that certain types of behavior is not acceptable and laws/rules have come about to deal with that. Since no legally protected rights seem to be at stake, there's really nothing preventing the majority from imposing these rules on the minority.

92 posted on 10/17/2003 12:45:49 PM PDT by Modernman ("In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women."-Homer)
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To: r9etb
Well, isn't my face red.

That'll teach me to read more carefully.

But to plow ahead, freedom is messy.

I read a remark years ago by I think, Fran Liebowitz, to the effect that being "out in public" means I put up with your bad habits and you put up with mine. Private property is the refuge.

The smoking Jihad has eliminated the refuge of private property, simple as that.

It really is the death of common sense, and the descent into crybabyism.

All risk removed, and the ascendancy of mediocrity.

But hey, who wouldn't want to die of boredom?

93 posted on 10/17/2003 12:46:48 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: CSM
Hey, pick me up a big T-Bone for the grill tonight. Thanks.

Well, shoot. I missed your message. Sorry. Here, have some hot dogs. Better then nothing. heh!


94 posted on 10/17/2003 12:53:47 PM PDT by SheLion (Curiosity killed the cat BUT satisfaction brought her back!!!)
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To: Modernman
Since no legally protected rights seem to be at stake, there's really nothing preventing the majority from imposing these rules on the minority.

Stunned silence.

95 posted on 10/17/2003 12:54:35 PM PDT by Madame Dufarge
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To: Madame Dufarge
Well, I can certainly agree that you're free to smoke on private property -- as long as you're not harming somebody else in the process, at any rate.

It is obviously necessary to be very careful if one has to decide on an abridgement of property rights -- and "jihad" is not too far off the mark in the case of some anti-smoking campaigns. But once it comes down to a question of harm to others, then your property rights properly come under scrutiny.

All risk removed, and the ascendancy of mediocrity.

It's a bit much to claim that lack of smokers will lead to mediocrity....

96 posted on 10/17/2003 12:55:40 PM PDT by r9etb
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Comment #97 Removed by Moderator

To: Old Professer
Second to boredom is loneliness; but that, of course, only for those who were first bored.

heh!

98 posted on 10/17/2003 12:59:50 PM PDT by SheLion (Curiosity killed the cat BUT satisfaction brought her back!!!)
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To: Madame Dufarge
Stunned silence.

Why stunned? The example would be one of public drunkenness. Do we have a right to stagger around drunk in public? Well, it could be so-argued (and you could probably find a FR libertarian to argue it). But in reality it doesn't seem to violate anybody's legal rights if drunks are instead taken to the tank for the night.

99 posted on 10/17/2003 1:00:11 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: Madame Dufarge
Stunned silence.

It's a little disconcerting to think about, but the only behaviors local and state government can't ban are things that are constitutionally-protected (whether US constitution or the state constitution). Everything else is fair game.

I can't think of any argument that can support the proposition that you have a right to smoke.

100 posted on 10/17/2003 1:01:21 PM PDT by Modernman ("In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women."-Homer)
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