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"Stop calling firefighters 'heroes.' " (A cush job most of the time)
Slate ^ | Oct. 31, 03 | Douglas Gantenbein

Posted on 11/03/2003 3:01:57 PM PST by churchillbuff

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To: trailblazr
Dying does make you a hero. If that was true, every Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Merchant Marine, Coastie and Airman who has died defending this country would have won the Medal of Honor.

A hero is not just someone in pink tights and a cape that you can plainly see, and the Medal of Honor is not a certification for Hero-ship.

There are many heros in this world everyday in many professions. People who stand for important things and make big actions, and people who will never be known by you or me, and who's actions may seem really insignificant to you, but they make a difference. Hardly any of them will ever win a medal.

Anyone who has ever died defending ths country is a hero. For they give you the right to sit in your easy chair and bang out your opinion about them in this forum.

261 posted on 11/11/2003 5:21:32 AM PST by Jalapeno
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To: trailblazr
OH yeah, anv BTW welcome to FR. ;>
262 posted on 11/11/2003 5:22:31 AM PST by Jalapeno
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To: IronJack
My mother's family has run the FD in a medium sized New England city for years, one of my cousins is chief now and forty years ago when I was in college I was a Ventura County, CA volunteer firefighter.

I agree with a lot of the author's premise, but not all.

Like any other bureaucracy, the FD is constantly trying to expand itself even as modern materials and technology make home fires less likely. Most fireman practically kill each other to get the night shift so they can work their "real" job during the day.

On the other hand, a fireman can earn an entire years pay in one fire if the fit really hits the shan.

263 posted on 11/11/2003 5:40:14 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: churchillbuff
Yeah, this guy is correct in a lot of ways, but mostly he speaks from the place he sits. Although it is correct that alot of the fire dept is sitting around waiting, for the call to come in. (Adrenaline junkies I believe he called them). But ya have to be really glad they are there. So when that situation arises, the folks on duty aren't standing around, deciding wether or not it's worth running past all those running away . Yeah firefighters and paramedic's might be a bit crazy about what they do, but isn't that what it takes sometimes to this job. Another area that the expert for SI writes about is the less then glamorous details of a somewhat boring and uneventful day. Again this is a majority of what we do. It's all part of what we do, washing units, cleaning gear, eating and sleeping. But I wonder when was the last time this writer was jerked out of bed at three AM , in sub zero weather. And driven to one of those few minor nightmares that come along. You know, based on his pattern of thought, we should only have military that are soldiers on the rare occasion they are needed. Unless you are a seal, ranger, recon etc, most of what they do is boring, petty, training and so on. I guess unless you've been in direct combat your no hero. SORRY American Military. Let's ignore all those that it takes to keep the fighters on the carriers ready for combat 24 hours aday. There are a whole lot more indians out there, then there are chiefs, { or maybe better back seat moo-rons who are experts at everything}. Again we have to be thankful for gentleman like this writer. Because of him we take the time to examine who we are and what we do. If he had his way we would only do what makes sense. In the Fire Dept!!! Not running into fire so hot it melts yout helmet to save a life. Or running into two, not one burning high rises. Those adrenaline junkies are so crazy. I wonder how much courage and bravery it takes to be a sports writer critisizing what other do. How about all those piddily little calls, Mr Nobody dieing from a heart attack, or the nobody family dieing in some accident, or some nobody firefighter dieing because of a citizens dumb mistake or maybe to much time sitting around the fire house during our lazy do nothing 24 hour shift The same FF's who chose to serve the public in a place where there aren't as many tragedies as other places. You know those overpaid, underworked men and woman who thought the cost to their bodies and minds, was worth it to help others, for 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 years. Lets not forget something that we are real familiar with, but obviously mr writer isn't. You know all those little calls that we handle, that we take a little bit of the stress and tragedy with us everytime we leave and go back. You can't sleep, can't eat, can't think. Year after year after year. That builds up and does a lot of damage. I bet mr writer never writes about the ff's that jump off bridges, shoot themselves, drink themselves to death, destroy thier marriages, and so on. But I bet you that not one of those folks that where helped during one of those less them glamorous jobs ever conplained . Mr Writer says that our hours are so flexible that we can get a part time job or maybe start a second career. How dare us, maybe we want not to die doing this job. Or we want something better for our families. I wonder what a big shot sports writer make sitting around his office judging us. So remember the next time a plane takes out a high rise full of people, or a huge mass of vehicles piles up in the middle of no where, some lonely homeless old person, who nobody cares about or knows lies dieing in a cold alley. Stop and look around to see how many over paid, underworked SPORTS WRITERS you see dieing for someone, burning to death, being crushed thinking about thier spouse and children with thier last few thoughts, bringing home some deadly disease. I would like to finish up by apologizing to this sports writer, that my 30 years for the most part have not been glamorous, nor heroic, and yes I've been paid for those years . Not to mention several years as a volunteer, I guess then I was just a adrenaline junkie. Finally remind anyone who wants to share thier opinion, WE ARE NOT THERE FOR WHAT WE DO, IT'S WHAT WE MAY HAVE TO DO...............................
264 posted on 11/13/2003 6:30:53 AM PST by BADGE113
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To: clintonh8r
I'm a firefighter, and when there's a fire in you're house, don't bother to call the local fire department and get yourself out while your house burns to the ground, you'll be even more sorry if you can't get out and your stuck. While people are running out, firefighters are running in.
265 posted on 12/13/2003 10:12:43 AM PST by Holt
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And to everyone else who doesn't call ff's heroes, I'd like to see what you'd do on 9/11. How would you like to be infront of a building where people are jumping out windows infront of you? Going up into a building where there's limbs all over the place, people screaming and all hell is loose. Some of you amaze me, you think you're so tough, you be the 1st one to go into a burning building and let's see how much fun you have.
266 posted on 12/13/2003 10:27:15 AM PST by Holt
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To: churchillbuff

Your article is full of misconceptions and lies. The one thing I agree with you on is that the word hero is thrown around too much. Just because someone is a firefighter does not make them a good person, although from what I have seen in my 4 years in the fire service, in NJ and now CO, most of them are which is because of the traits that lead one to pursue this noble profession. And it is a noble profession. A lot of career firefighters are volunteers first, and they become volunteers not to help them get a job but because it's something they want to do. They end up enjoying it so much because it is a very rewarding job that they try and get a career job. It is rewarding not because you get to sit on a couch all day, but because you get to be in a position to help people, which is almost exclusively the reason people become firefighters, because they want to do just that.
The schedule is unique in that you work 24 hour shifts. This has major advantages to it, for example being able to spend days with your family, not just weekends. And yes, it gives you the opportunity to work a second job, which many firefighters do. Keep in mind, however, that the 24 hour shift schedule comes out to over 40 hours a week and that many firefighters have to work second jobs to support their families because the firefighter pay is not enough.
Fires have changed a lot in recent years. It is true, as you say, that in the past firefighters were exclusively firefighters and there were a lot of fires because of wood burning stoves and construction along with the lack of fire alarm systems. There are not as many fires anymore in large part because of technology. It should also be pointed out that the fires today burn hotter and are more deadly than in the past. In the past the big killer was backdrafts because construction used sealed off spaces. Today it is flashovers which happen as a matter of course in house fires today, and did not before. That is because it gets hot enough thanks to the synthetic materials used in building construction today. It is also much more dangerous to be on the roof now that lightweight truss construction is so common. This is a system where all parts of the roof are connected and held together by a gusset place, a square with many 3/4 inch nails. Metal does not do well under fire and within 10 minutes of fire exposure these plates will likely fail and when any part of the roof fails in truss construction, the whole roof fails meaning anyone on the roof (which is often necessary to successfully fight fire) will fall through the roof that is no longer there. But while there are new risks, firefighter deaths have stabalized at about 100 per year. The author condemns firefighters for being called heroes while not making the top 10 list of most dangerous occupations. That is ridiculous. The best firefighters, the ones with the most experience and most training should be the least likely to get hurt or killed in the line of duty. Therefore, the less injuries or deaths in the line of duty, the better the firefighters are doing. And speaking of injuries and deaths, firefighters get hurt. That's a fact. If you are a firefighter for 30 years you will likely get hurt in your career at some point. My personal worst fear is becoming disabled on the job. That's because the disability a firefighter would collect is not enough to support anyone. The salary is low as it is, and 2/3 of that is just not enough. But injury and disability is something that a risk that firefighters live with and accept by going to work every day.
To say that EMS is just firefighters trying to hide the fact that they do not fight fires should be proof that the author is misinformed and out of line. Perhaps the title "firefighter" is misleading and we should be called public safety agents instead, but that's just a matter of symantics. The fact is, our job is not to fight fire. It is to save lives and property. Because there are less firefighters and the new positions of EMTs and Paramedics, what better way to help people than to add EMS to firefighters arsenals of methods to help people. The same goes for Haz-mat, high-angle/low-angle rescue, or any other specialty. In addition it gives firefighters a chance to go into a specialty that they are particularly interested in. There is no rational line of thought that would criticize firefighters for participating in EMS.
As far as the complaint about firefighter funerals, firefighting is rich in tradition. Change is hard to come by in the fire service. There are always the old guys who don't want do anything except the way they've always done it. There is a saying about the fire service, "Over 200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress." While the fire service has progressed a lot, the fact is there is a huge element of tradition and ritual to it. Good or bad, like it or not, that's the way it is. And the bottom line as far as that goes is that while opinions differ about it, that is the culture of the fire service. I personally don't think funeral processions should go through red lights but a lot of people disagree with me. That's what I think about it, but I know it comes down to different personal prefferences and that's just the way it's done. I have also never ever heard of the fire department not giving the family of the firefighter the choice of a firefighter or private funeral.
I don't think firefighters should be considered heroes just because they're firefighters. I personally admire them because of what they do and what they're willing to do to help people. I think most people do too, and I don't think that is a character flaw of the general public.


267 posted on 05/08/2005 11:19:54 AM PDT by stevieb310
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To: Tijeras_Slim
So what.. if my house is on fire, I sure as h#ll don't want "journalists" to show up."""

Fine, but if you're in a car accident, it should be enough to have a cop, a tow truck and if need be an ambulance show up. Instead, we have fire trucks going to common fender-benders - - - all to give the fire departments an excuse to keep fully staffed (and big pay packages) in an era when the number of fires has gone way down. It's called make-work and taxpayers are paying through the nose.

268 posted on 05/08/2005 12:06:02 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: Tijeras_Slim
Here is the email address for the author jerk: 71422.3473@compuserve.com
269 posted on 05/08/2005 12:15:27 PM PDT by SLB ("We must lay before Him what is in us, not what ought to be in us." C. S. Lewis)
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To: stevieb310; stevie_d_64

You guys related?


270 posted on 05/08/2005 12:20:05 PM PDT by Flyer (If I were 8 pixels tall I could fit in my tag line)
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To: churchillbuff

If Douglas Gantenbein has an heart attack, I wonder if he'll call the New York Times for help? I wonder how many paramedics the Times employs.

And, by the way, there are hundreds of firefighters we lost in the WTC collapse whose sacrifice maked a fool out of Gantenbein and his ilk.


271 posted on 05/08/2005 12:24:00 PM PDT by righttackle44 (The most dangerous weapon in the world is a Marine with his rifle and the American people behind him)
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To: stevieb310

Welcome to FR. Kind of an old article, so I take it you found it (and FR) through a Google search?


272 posted on 05/08/2005 12:26:29 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: churchillbuff

Most firefighters are also paramedics. That's why they show up there.


273 posted on 05/08/2005 12:49:14 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("Get in the ring!")
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To: churchillbuff
hey ass who is going to cut your safety feature crumple zone car away from your mangled body so that I can take you to the hospital???????????????? oh and since you probably are a fit individual of 160# instead of the obese 160kg norm that most of America is it will be easy for me and my partner to lift your mangled body onto a backboard without severing your damaged spinal chord. and I am sure that you would want gasoline and antifreeze all over you which burns the skin since it is all over the road. you know dick if you would stop and pull your head out, and really look at what firefighters do, you would realize that they are needed a lot more than you think, set your biases aside and do a ride a long with a local department or if that takes up too much of your precious time go talk to them and they will show you what they do and all of the tools that they have to save your ass in almost any situation, I am not the strongest person and they have helped me carry many of my patients hundreds of feet to my ambulance, and I appreciate them every time they show up to help.
274 posted on 01/07/2006 12:41:41 PM PST by MEDIC4LIFE (GET OFF YOUR PEDISTAL)
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To: MEDIC4LIFE

Welcome to FR.


275 posted on 01/07/2006 12:46:09 PM PST by Darksheare (Beware the waddling Penguin Invaders from Ursa Minor!)
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To: righttackle44
If Douglas Gantenbein has an heart attack, I wonder if he'll call the New York Times for help?"""

I think the question is whether firefighters should be paid as lavishly as they are in many cities and states. Their pay and benefits, and their pensions, are far above average compensation for people in the private sector - the people who are taxed to pay their salaries.

276 posted on 01/07/2006 1:14:29 PM PST by churchillbuff
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To: churchillbuff

I don't know who this idiot is but I bet he would be crying and begging for these firefighters if his relatives, pets, property, livestock, etc. were just about to go bye bye forever in a puff of smoke. He sounds like someone who has never faced the distinct possibility of losing everything in a fire, as most of us in Oklahoma are currently doing day after day. Let me say that the fire fighters, the volunteer departments, the police (who warn us to evacuate), the pilots of the planes that drop the water, the religious organizations that have banded together to feed everyone and all the others are darn sure heroes to us!


277 posted on 01/07/2006 1:32:53 PM PST by pepperdog
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To: churchillbuff
A while ago I used to work at a computer-related firm with a guy who was also a firefighter. He spent two days a week living in the fire house, for which he was paid a full salary. This allowed him time to also have a full-time job at our company. There aren't too many jobs with excellent benefits where you are paid for the time you are sleeping.

Every town in America seems to send fire engines on calls that only require an ambulance and paramedics. As far as I can tell, the only purpose of this is to up the number of hours the equipment is being used and the firefighters are out doing something.

In any city where is a funeral for a firefighter thousands of firefighters pour into town from all over the country. It seems doubtful that the firefighters are paying for all this travel and lodging out of their own pockets.

Yes, firefighters are often heroes, but they also use this hero image to keep people from asking too many questions.

278 posted on 01/07/2006 1:49:15 PM PST by wideminded
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To: pepperdog

I think the question is whether firefighters should be paid as lavishly as they are in many cities and states. Their pay and benefits, and their pensions, are far above average compensation for people in the private sector - the people who are taxed to pay their salaries.


279 posted on 01/07/2006 2:07:53 PM PST by churchillbuff
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