Posted on 11/05/2003 7:03:36 PM PST by veryone
From the Wisconsin state page: "In short the "plastic pistol" is an assasin's (SIC) piece." Chuck Schumer couldn't have said it any better.
I told you metal IS REQUIRED for the barrel and all they have to do is provide a sufficiently xray dense handle.
At best put an unnecessary metal paperweight in the handle of every future handgun for a worthless law?
There's always plenty of room. I think you're missing the hint that I am well aware of the relevant physics and material science.
Maybe in a muzzle loader, but not in many polymer framed handguns today an certainly not tomorrow. It's clear that the rights of other firearms owners don't interest you.
It's (the unregulated sale of the explosive black powder) not a loophole. There are some things that are important and some that are not.
So much for hanging together or surely hanging separately. I wrote a letter to my congressman after Oklahoma City when they were debating added taxes and licensing requirements for black powder even though I've never bought any. I can know see that fighting to preserve your rights simply isn't worth the effort. Your selfishness in preserving our nation's legacy is a disgrace. Your grandchildren deserve to be disarmed.
" At best put an unnecessary metal paperweight in the handle of every future handgun for a worthless law?"
The law's value lies in maintaining the viability of xray detectors.
"muzzle loader"
You haven't a clue. Reread my post.
"not in many polymer framed handguns today"
The law dates from 1988 on. I can formulate an xray dense polymer frame, why can't you. Apparently Bushmaster can and so can Glock, else their catalog items wouldn't be for sale.
"Your grandchildren deserve to be disarmed."
You get too emotional over the inconsequential. If you understood physics, materials science and firearms engineering you wouldn't be making these statements.
"Your selfishness in preserving our nation's legacy is a disgrace.
What is our Nations legacy? What do you know about my efforts to preserve it?
My plastic framed firearms are very durable. They can't corrode (even stainless steel will rust), they don't suffer from thermal stress, and they are very shock resistant. They are also more ergonomic and inexpensive to produce than steel firearms. Polymer firearms are supplanting steel firearms in the same way that composite aircraft are replacing aluminum aircraft.
Furthermore, none of them have been used in any assassination attempts. Your ignorant and inflammatory language in a public forum undermines support for our constitution's second amendment.
The law's value lies in maintaining the viability of xray detectors.
Terrorist's have always been able to get their guns where they want them, yet few terrorists still use them at all. Furthermore, firearms are detectable by x-rays, just like all matter is (as everyone who has ever had a dental x-ray knows). Your fallacious strawman argument that this legislation has to do with x-ray equipment is as wrong as everything else you've said here. The statue's intent is to make all firearms set off the induction based walk through metal detectors, not the luggage screening x-ray machines. These antiquated metal detectors can be defeated by active induction cancellation regardless how much metal is in the firearm and will soon be replaced with other technologies.
The law dates from 1988 on. I can formulate an xray dense polymer frame, why can't you. Apparently Bushmaster can and so can Glock, else their catalog items wouldn't be for sale.
None of these firearm's use "x-ray dense polymers" since x-ray absorbency isn't at issue.
If you understood physics, materials science and firearms engineering you wouldn't be making these statements.
It's clear from your statements above about "xrays" that you understand none of these in this context. Using the same sort of tortured logic you've used above, black powder doesn't show up in either screening test. So, by your same tortured logic, black powder must be a "terrorist substance" that should also be banned.
What is our Nations legacy? What do you know about my efforts to preserve it?
Our nation is unique in our ability to buy and posses the means to defend ourselves and our liberties. These rights have been lost everywhere else, one step at a time, by misguided people like you. By undermining this legacy, you squander everyone's inheritance.
"(1) which is not as detectable as the Security Exemplar (after the removal of grips, stocks, and magazines) by walk-through metal detectors calibrated and operated to detect the Exemplar;or (2) of which any major component, when subjected to inspection by x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component."
Are lawful items under this law.
"they don't suffer from thermal stress,
Everything suffers from thermal stress, especially plastics when compared to metal. Plastics also have lower strengths.
"and they are very shock resistant."
Compared to what? What's the application and alternative materials? Does the design matter? ...ect.
"They are also more ergonomic and inexpensive to produce than steel firearms."
Ergonomic? What are the design parameters and engineering alternates? Cheap! Yes, injection molded plastics are cheap. Composites are a little more. "Polymer firearms are supplanting steel firearms in the same way that composite aircraft are replacing aluminum aircraft."
Maybe you've been reading too many marketing hype. Composites have a use, but they are not replacing much Al, or Ti in aircraft. Consider the NY jet crash a couple weeks after 911. The tail fell off. That's, because they failed to really comprehend the nature of C composites. I prefer a steel frame 45, it's much more rugged, robust and reliable then anything built with plastic, or carbon.
"Your ignorant and inflammatory language in a public forum undermines support for our constitution's second amendment."
Sure it does.
"These antiquated metal detectors can be defeated by active induction cancellation"
WIth much trouble and inside info.
" So, by your same tortured logic, black powder must be a "terrorist substance" that should also be banned."
It's not tortured logic. The govm't doesn't want firearms in some locations. THey have detectors and other means to prevent them from getting in. The same goes for black powder. Black powder isn't supposed to be in those areas either and they have detectors and methods to prevent it.
" These rights have been lost everywhere else, one step at a time, by misguided people like you. By undermining this legacy, you squander everyone's inheritance.
Nah.
" Our nation is unique in our ability to buy and posses the means to defend ourselves and our liberties."
Like I said before, I'm interested in defending against air and mech armor attack, not piddling over nonsense.
lawful under this law.
The metallic content requirement of the statute has nothing to do with x-ray imaging. A piece of soap can be accurately imaged without any metal in it at all.
Everything suffers from thermal stress, especially plastics when compared to metal. Plastics also have lower strengths.
Plastics have much lower thermal expansion constants and they also fatigue less near the failure limit. Carbon fiber has a much greater tensile strength than any gun metal. Polymers are also more shock absorbent than metal as a material.
Ergonomic? What are the design parameters and engineering alternates? Cheap! Yes, injection molded plastics are cheap.
Injection molding allows more ergonomic shapes to be produced with less machining than cast metal or machined metal components. Again, they are also more shock absorbent. Cost is always a consideration.
Maybe you've been reading too many marketing hype. Composites have a use, but they are not replacing much Al, or Ti in aircraft. Consider the NY jet crash a couple weeks after 911. The tail fell off. That's, because they failed to really comprehend the nature of C composites.
Polymers are becoming more common in aerospace applications, metals less common.
I prefer a steel frame 45, it's much more rugged, robust and reliable then anything built with plastic, or carbon.
I prefer polymers, but I would never support banning steel weapons or slander them publicly with phrases like "gang guns" like you have done with your "assassin pieces" lie. Tell me, who has been assassinated with a non-metallic firearm? No one.
It's not tortured logic. The govm't doesn't want firearms in some locations. THey have detectors and other means to prevent them from getting in.
Permanently prohibiting a firearm design application for what is already antiquated detection technology is foolish and a threat to other types of firearms.
The same goes for black powder. Black powder isn't supposed to be in those areas either and they have detectors and methods to prevent it.
Nitrate testers can be easily defeated. The answer is to ban terrorists, not tools. If I loose my firearms, I will be less willing to defend yours. In the end our children will loose. Sadly, short sighted and self centered firearm owners like you are a worse enemy to our second amendment than any liberal activist.
And I'm fighting foolish laws like this one to make sure that my children's will be too.
Read the law.
(2) of which any major component, when subjected to inspection by x-ray machines commonly used at airports, does not generate an image that accurately depicts the shape of the component."
" Plastics have much lower thermal expansion constants and they also fatigue less near the failure limit."
Plastics have higher thermal expansion coefficients and a lower fatigue life at the same ratio of applied to yield stress.
"Carbon fiber has a much greater tensile strength than any gun metal."
It also burns and composites made from it are extremely sensitive to scratches, flaws, notches and similar geometric features. The type and frequency of catastophic failures known to occur with CCs are unknown with metal and even to other lower strength composites.
"Polymers are also more shock absorbent than metal as a material."
Define shock absorbent. Then consider the design, the design purpose and consider the material choices. Don't forget that shock absorbing materials do so at their own peril.
" Polymers are becoming more common in aerospace applications, metals less common."
Ceramic/metal and carbon/metal composites are, but not polymers.
" "assassin pieces" lie."
The attempt is to prevent guns being brought into protected areas. The engineering features of guns banned by this law make them inferior pieces. They excel in only one property, their ability to pass undetected though present screening methods. Hence they are assassins tools.
" antiquated detection technology"
It is not antiquated.
" Nitrate testers can be easily defeated.
It's doubtful you could name any interference. It's also clear that you don't comprehend that all attempts to defeat it will be caught. Unless of course morons are running the checkpoint, but that applies to the recognition of a gun in the x-ray image.
" The answer is to ban terrorists, not tools."
Murder is against the law. Guns are not. Since you mentioned tools, I told you the engineering features banned by this law are usful only as an assassins tool.
"If I loose my firearms,"
What part of, "your firearms are legal" don't you get?
" Sadly, short sighted and self centered firearm owners like you are a worse enemy to our second amendment than any liberal activist."
Nah.
You'd think Delay, the rest of Congress and the NRA were deaf and dumb to this by your reconning, but they are not. I gave you the reasons the law is inconsequential. Here's the rest of it. Ignoring the political fallout from those folks pushing to enable an open market in assassin's weapons is just plain dumb. It's real. Why do you think Sensenbrenner took the ball? Do you even know how he voted on the AW ban?
The image shape is not dependent upon the metallic content.
Plastics have higher thermal expansion coefficients
This is actually inaccurate.
and a lower fatigue life at the same ratio of applied to yield stress.
Not a direct comparison. Plastics fatigue less near the failure limit. The rest of your factual assertions are also incorrect.
The attempt is to prevent guns being brought into protected areas.
It's not going to stop anyone. If it did, they could simply make their own non-metallic firearm by drilling a hole in anything. No one has ever needed to bother.
The engineering features of guns banned by this law make them inferior pieces. They excel in only one property, their ability to pass undetected though present screening methods.
Not true. They would be lighter, less expensive, and possibly more reliable.
Hence they are assassins tools.
Not true, no assassin has ever used them. They are assassin's tools only to fools and liars.
It's doubtful you could name any interference. It's also clear that you don't comprehend that all attempts to defeat it will be caught. Unless of course morons are running the checkpoint, but that applies to the recognition of a gun in the x-ray image.
Phosphates would overwhelm andy bionary sensor. The terrorists won't be stopped by any aircraft security or stupid law. They are only meant to pacify simpletons.
Murder is against the law. Guns are not. Since you mentioned tools, I told you the engineering features banned by this law are useful only as an assassins tool.
Again, they have never been used by assassins to defeat security. Prove it or stop lying about.
It is clear that you are defending the banning of a class of weapons based on a incompetent understanding of the technology used to detect them. The same misguided and flawed logic you have used here was used in all gun bans, and none of it has made the world any safer. You know this law won't save any lives, and if not then I can't help you. Your simple minded willingness to compromise other people's freedoms makes you unworthy of the liberty your have. You don't deserve it.
Your whole premise is a lie. These aren't "assassin's weapons." You have repeatedly ignored my challenge to back up this claim and others, yet you continue to assert this and your other bald faced lies. You haven't shown how this law is going to stop terrorists, assassins, or anyone else intent on causing harm. You can't. Like all gun bans it will just be one more law telling law abiding people what they can't do while the criminals can steal, make, or buy on the black market any gun they want. By using distortions to defend the banning of a class of firearms you are no better than any other lying liberal, and are unworthy of further debate. Until you answer the several challenges I have made in this thread, I'll let your lies and fallacious logic speak for itself.
Read the law again. I said x-ray density for a reason. THe plastic reenforcer can be an xray dense oxide, or salt.
Re:Plastics have higher thermal expansion coefficients
" This is actually inaccurate.
They are at least an order of magnitude higher, usually more. Check your facts.
re:and a lower fatigue life at the same ratio of applied to yield stress."Not a direct comparison. "
fatigue life is a number. To compare to materials, that stress ratios forces a direct comparison.
" Plastics fatigue less near the failure limit.
Fatigue less? Fatigue more? WTHIT? Fatigue life is the number of cycles to failure. That is the measure.
"The rest of your factual assertions are also incorrect."
Sure.
"phosphates"
Are not an interference for nitrates.
" Again, they have never been used by assassins to defeat security.
I wouldn't know.
" Prove it or stop lying about."
LOL.
" It's not going to stop anyone. If it did, they could simply make their own non-metallic firearm by drilling a hole in anything."
Since 1988 that's what folks had to do to have one of these things.
" The terrorists won't be stopped by any aircraft security or stupid law."
They ain't had much luck since 911. Of course you'd like to see undetectable guns on the market.
"Your simple minded willingness to compromise other people's freedoms makes you unworthy of the liberty your have. You don't deserve it.
I haven't compromised anything. Whining about this nonsense would.
We're done. What I have written stands.
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