Historical Perspective: Intelligence and the 1944 Election [Title Not in Original]

U.S.S. Clueless ^ | 11/5/03 | Den Beste

[LS]

Just answer the questions, Joseph. Everyone is waiting:

Were the vets who broke the codes traitors?

Or were they incompetent and didn't break the codes? Which is it?

[conservatism_IS_compassion]

Thomas Flemmings' book, The New Dealers' War, indicates that Hitler's declaration of war on the US was not mandated by treaty but was due to the publication in a Chicago paper of a leaked plan for US militarization to fight both Japan and Germany. And that, tho Germany didn't follow through on the decision, the high command recognized that war with the US implied switching over to a defensive posture, and therefore was taken very reluctantly.

Flemming figures FDR leaked the memo on purpose after reading the diplomatic code intercept which implied a Japanese attack (somewhere), thereby deliberately inducing the German Declaration of War and simultaneously bushwhacking the isolationists at home.

[jamaksin]

Larry,

So you admit, for all to see, that the AKAGI message is not - your adjective - "fraudulent" - thank you very much.

But, still, you have not answered the question - why does it remain so beyond the light of day?

[jamaksin]

Thank you ... I will add your kind reference to my list of future reading.

[LS]

I admitted no such thing. I insisted that you DO THE VETERANS RIGHT and tell them, for all here to see, whether you think they were incompetent or traitorous. Please let us all know what your position is.

[jamaksin]

Thank you for your comment. The helpful citation here:

"Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor? No!: The Story of the the U.S. Navy efforts in JN-25B" by Philip H. Jacobsen in Cryptologia Volume 27, Issue 3 (July 2003), beginning page 193.

[I believe that this is the article that you are referring to; if not, it is still worth a scan.]

I would also note, as previously stated, that none of the raw intercepts for the Japanese naval operational code (specifically the five-numeral, five-digit, Naval Code D, or similar ... ) have been released, whereas tomes of German ENIGMA/ULTRA materials have been ... why is that? [Perhaps it is ergodic process?]

[jamaksin]

Larry,

So, therefore you are saying that the AKAGI message is ... a fraud?

Oh, and, why still the source materials beyond public view?

Thank you very much for the clarification in advance.

[Doctor Stochastic]

That's the one.

[LS]

Everyone can now see that this fellow DOES believe that the American cryptologists in 1941 were either TRAITORS or were INCOMPETENT.

I hope you're all seeing this. I hope you vets out there realize that I have given him a half dozen opportunities to state clearly his position. He obviously believes one of these two, since he has refused to deny either.

Course, he can't, because if he says they were traitors, it destroys his position that the cryptographers "knew" and were in cahoots with FDR to "cover up," and if he says they were incompetent, then they didn't know what they were looking at in the first place.

I hope you all see that his constant attempt to change the subject reveals his CLEAR VIEW that you veteran cryptographers were either traitors or incompetent.

[jamaksin]

Thank you ... I did not wish to mislead anyone here.

[jamaksin]

Larry and everyone,

Yes, please do read this thread fully. It began well enough, but the spiral began ...

As to Larry's presupposition in this thread - I cannot find a basis. I am in the AKAGI message corner ...

However, I would point to a recent text, "Defenseless: The Political Sabotage of Pearl Harbor" by John W. Lambert and Norman Polmar, from the Introduction:

"In 1999, by a vote of 52 to 47, the U.S. Senate cleared the names of Admiral Husband Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short of blame for leaving Pearl Harbor vulnerable to attack. According to the declaration, Kimmel and Short had performed their duties 'completely and professionally,' and that America's losses at Pearl were 'not the result of dereliction of duty' ..."

To be complete here, the current President Bush, refused to allow Kimmel and Short to be returned to their pre-Pearl Harbor rank.

[LS]

I need no "presupposition" other than the fact that for the TENTH TIME you have refused to answer what to me is a very easy question to address:

Do you think the cryptographers of 1941 were traitors? Did they help conceal (as you implied on the other thread) or "cover up" knowledge of the attack after the fact? You said this on the other thread. Be honest. Address this point and SCREW THE AKAGI! Address the issue. Answer the question.

If they were not traitors, do you think they were incompetent????

Why the hell are you avoiding these very simple questions? I can answer them both, easily! NO, and NO. Why are you afraid to do so?

Readers, I hope you you see why he will not answer these questions. He has staked out a position in which he accuses these honorable veterans of being in cahoots with FDR to "cover up" knowledge of an attack. IS THIS NOT TRUE? DO YOU NOT CLAIM THIS? IF NOT, SAY SO! DON'T REFER TO ANOTHER THREAD!!!

The only other option is if they were not dishonorable men, that they were incompetent, and didn't know what they were decrypting. IS THIS YOUR POSITION? WHY CAN YOU NOT ANSWER VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD QUESTIONS??

[Semper Paratus]

Pearl should have been on alert the minute a Japanese midget sub was sunk

My grandfather-in-law was stationed at Pearl and said Command knew of the midget subs three weeks before the attack.

[LS]

It's unconscionable. Kimmel at the very least should have gone to full alert when you have ENEMY SUBS IN YOUR DAMN HARBOR??!!

[Semper Paratus]

ENEMY SUBS IN YOUR DAMN HARBOR

It was actually outside the harbor, assumed to be tracking ship movements, but there were orders to blow them away if they could.

[jamaksin]

Larry,

So, again, is the AKAGI message a fraud or not?

Thank you.

[Tracy White]

USS Ward notified the 14th Naval District HQ that she had located and attacked a submarine in the defensive area an hour before the attack. The defensive area was located outside the harbor, and Ward did not claim in her radio transmissions that she had sunk said submarine or that it was a midget sub. There had been several false alarms in the year leading up to the attack, including a gunner on one of Arizona's 5" broadside guns requesting permission to fire on a target on December 4th! (The bridge turned down his request)

Kimmel DID order the ready duty destroyer (USS Monaghan) to put out and assist Ward. In light of all of this; false alarms and a message only about one submarine attacked, would you have scrambled the fleet? Do you sent battleships and cruisers out against submarines?

[jamaksin]

And that the Striking Force was tracked prior to the Pearl Harbor attack ... that is why the AKAGI message from above on its voyage to Pearl Harbor ... is likely such a "hot" button, and perhaps that is why these source documents (and others) are still beyond public view.

Imagine, after all this time, the Striking Forces' "supposed" order for strict radio silence (i.e., all frequencies at all times) has never been produced. On the other hand, several documents has surfaced that show the orders (e.g., Operational Order No. 1 - Novemebr 17, 1941 revision at the MacArthur Archive to be found in the so-called CA NACHI Papers) were in fact to transmit acknowledgements ...

[Tracy White]

Before I post any more on this, how do you mean fraud?
Was it a fraud in what sense?

[LS]

So again, are the cryptologists liars or incompetents? This should be easy, since I think I know your answer.

Why don't you share that with the vets here. Meanwhile, I think a certain Mr. White has your number on the Akagi. Deal with him on that. NOW ANSWER MY QUESTION!