Lt. Col. Allen B. West

Washington Times ^ | November 6, 2003 | Stanley SrA. USAF 91-95

[A Simple Soldier]

Your commentary is tin foil hat material. The feminists in the Pentagon? That is one of the most testoterone soaked buildings on the planet

The "evil" Pentagon and those nefarious bureaucrats that do nothing but clog up metro DC traffic have no role in this investigation. This is, for now, an internal matter for the 4th ID. The Commanding General, MG Ray Odierno, is the General Court-Martial convening authority.

The Division SJA made a recommendation to the Division Commander. Before we blame the JAG, we have a "commander's Army" believe it or not. The CG makes the ultimate call. The SJA only recommends based on a dispassionate legal analysis of the actions committed versus the law as written.

Additionally, for the SECDEF or Acting SECARMY to opine at this point in the investigation would be reckless and potentially exhibit illegal command influence. And POTUS has other things to monitor closely.

I would venture an educated guess that if LTC West is convicted, he will probably have his sentence set aside and be allowed to retire as a Major.

[Conspiracy Guy]

Be sure to read 77 and all the West bashers that follow.

[Calpernia]

Bump! Thank you Gunrunner!

[Landru]

montag speaks for me @ #36, sultan.

...'nuff said.

[A Simple Soldier]

LTC West's statements cannot be said to have been written dispassionately. He has a vested interest in this case, to say the least.

Your nuke scenario is completely valid and ethically consistent. His situation is not even near the same, though.

This situation is a different threshhold and that is why the investigation has to continue and this needs to be played out. These charges were not levied lightly. This situation is not as clear as you seem to believe. Check out some of Poobah's postings here. There is more to this than the controlled discharge of a firearm very near a bad guy's brain housing unit.

[Gunrunner2]

>>Your commentary is tin foil hat material.<<

Yes.

>>The feminists in the Pentagon? That is one of the most testoterone soaked buildings on the planet<<

Must disagree on that one, my friend.

I've spent more time in that building that I care to remember and there is most certainly a strong "feminist" influence. It may take the form of PC, but it does exist. For example, you try and take an adversarial approach to the subject of females in combat and you quickly discover certain non-PC thoughts and attitudes are not permitted.

It is a most political of organizations, as things are in DC.

[Soaring Feather]

Fantastic Pome!

You go get 'em Flurry, burn some butt!

[ZULU]

Done.

Thanks and God Bless you.

[alpowolf]

Bravo Zulu. Excellent post.

[Gunrunner2]

>>LTC West's statements cannot be said to have been written dispassionately. He has a vested interest in this case, to say the least. <<

But the fact remains he wrote an extemporaneous account of his action and submitted this account to his commander. That statement is released and reflects his state of mind and perceptions of the facts at the time. And, yes, a vested interest is there, as are the vested interests of the JAGs and commanders who are carrying forward this investigation and possible charges.

>>Your nuke scenario is completely valid and ethically consistent.<<

Thank you.

>>His situation is not even near the same, though. This situation is a different threshold and that is why the investigation has to continue and this needs to be played out.<<

The only difference is the level of lethality (numbers of potential killed). Other than that, I disagree and hold that it is applicable.

>> These charges were not levied lightly.<<

Never said they were.

>> This situation is not as clear as you seem to believe.<<

Never said it was clear. I even pointed out the blurring of ethics versus legalities in combat.

>>Check out some of Poobah's postings here. There is more to this than the controlled discharge of a firearm very near a bad guy's brain housing unit.<<

I have. It is less than convincing that the immediacy of the situation bears no weight in a tense and chaotic situation where if the right decisions are made, the right people die, and if the wrong decision was made, the wrong people die.

No multiple lives in this game of war. No re-sets. You win you live, you lose you die.

This is where judgment is required. Put this into context.

The fact that the system decided to proceed against Col West is irrelevant as far as providing ipso-facto guilt. The process and the people involved in the process have a vested interest as well, and that, my friend, should also be seriously considered.

[Ispy4u]

I hope you know what you've stepped in.

I have tried to educate people at FR for 3 days as to why LTC West is facing court martial. I have been accused of being everything from a know-nothing REMF to a traitor.

I too believe that LTC West will not go to jail nor lose his retirement. He shouldn't. But people don't seem to understand that discipline and standards of conduct are not just PC restrictions on warfighters. I can see you do and I hope you are much better than I am at arguing this point than I am.

[alpowolf]

This conversation certainly has a surreal quality, doesn't it? Hearing conservatives argue--some of them quite vehemently--that military officers can pick and choose which orders to obey, with no consequence, is just a bizarre experience.

[Ispy4u]

You should check my replies.

I am obviously a glutton for punishment, but some people are way over the top here.

I wonder if due to his actions the policeman gave him false information that lured his men into a trap would they still support him. I doubt it, for most of the people I'm arguing with here only the ends justify the means.

[GladesGuru]

Dear Sir:

This is sounding worse by the minute. Why were the soldiers charged? Was it because the Kilntoon Kommando Korps types at JAG knew they didn't have the wealth or contacts to defend themselves?

Have either you or the JAGies considered the long history of the Middle East wherein power is understood, as is vengence. Much of what we consider civilized behavior is viewed as weakness by our Middle Eastern enemy.

We seem to be facing something of a conundrum. Act like a gentleman and be seen as a weakling or act in an uncivilized manner and be respected (or at least feared).

To arrive at an answer, we must decide which is more important - victory or futile attempts to play gentleman amongst crazed fanatics?

[montag813]

The executive branch does not run the judicial branch; they are co-equal branches of government.

The JAG is not part of the Judiciary branch...it is a seperate system within the Armed Services. It is defined within the Uniform Code of Military Justice. JAGs are subordinate to civilian authorities in each branch.

[alpowolf]

for most of the people I'm arguing with here only the ends justify the means

No question about that. They don't seem to see the danger--to our own people--of such a thing.

In some cases I suspect there is some cultural arrogance too. If this were a case of an Iraqi doing this to an American they would scream "it's a War Crime!"

[Polybius]

West apparently gave two enlisted soldiers Article 15s for beating this Iraqi.

He who cannot command himself cannot command others...

Hypothetical civilian situation.......

During a kidnapping investigation, the Police have a suspected accomplice in custody. The Police and the D.A. naturally want to try to find out the location of the kidnap victim:

The D.A. goes to the interrogation room and either:

A. Threatens the suspect with death in the electric chair if he does not cooperate.

or

B. Stands aside as two Police officers beat the suspect until he cooperates.

Which conduct is legal and which conduct is illegal?

There is a difference between a physical beating and psychological intimidation.

[Ispy4u]

You are correct.

But I think poobah's point is that command influence on judicial proceedings is the same as the executive branch running the judiciary.

If some here were to get their way and have LTC West's case pulled by SECDEF or POTUS then the military justice system would indeed be damaged.

Be patient. The truth will come out about this incident, I don't think we know everything yet. I have suspicions that some here will eat a lot of crow for their vitriolic attacks on those of us who want the system to do it's work.

[Ispy4u]

A legal threat of a trial, with a resulting sentence is a far cry from assault.

LTC West has been correctly charged. See UCMJ art 128 info Although his offense does not desrve maximum sentencing.

[Ispy4u]

If this were a case of an Iraqi doing this to an American they would scream "it's a War Crime!"

Precisely.